Mediocre Beer

BlackRedGold · Post by **BlackRedGold** » Fri Feb 14, 2014 2:08 pm

squeaky wrote: Seems like Quebec, as a rule, can't make a decent IPA..

I'm going to guess you haven't been to Quebec in the past year. Moralite, Yakima, Leo's, Catapulte, Jukebox, Sabotage, Disco Soleil, End of the Road. All better than decent.

BlackRedGold · Post by **BlackRedGold** » Fri Feb 14, 2014 2:13 pm

Bytowner wrote: That sounds about right. I'd be thrilled if I lived in a town with 1 good German brewer, 1 good Belgian brewer, 1 good British brewer, and 1 good North American brewer. Instead I get Beau's. BtP is also too scatter shot. They've made some good beers, but you just never know.

I don't think I've had a bad beer from BtP yet. Nothing world class either mind you. But they are experimenting with a lot of different styles and lots of hoppy ones that I like. And to their credit they started up with a rye IPA, stout, imperial rye IPA and a grapefruit wheat. Now I think a double Belgian IPA (which is my favourite beer in their lineup) and an English special bitter are in their core lineup as well.

G.M. Gillman · Post by **G.M. Gillman** » Fri Feb 14, 2014 2:56 pm

Take Black IPA, generally credited to the late Greg Noonan. He started with the concept of an IPA, the American concept, which by then had been well-established since Liberty Ale and Celebration Ale but also some APAs had set the tone. He made a small but significant change to it, using some dark malt to darken the colour and lend a touch of flavour, but without turning it into a porter or stout. A variation perhaps on the half and half of pale ale and stout which has been around a long time. That to me is the more usual way - incremental so to speak - rather than a hodgepodge approach and I know (Chris) you were exaggerating to make a point but it's a good point.

Sometimes though an "inspired" move, even an accident, can make a great beer.

Another thing is that this thread has clarified that there are many senses of mediocre - it could be the style is found wanting, or the particular rendering of it, or in the technical/brewing process which produced it. Or in the range of a given area's beers, or its currency as compared to the U.S., say. Lots of ways of looking at it, each different.

Gary

Bush Pilot Brewing · Post by **Bush Pilot Brewing** » Fri Feb 14, 2014 5:27 pm

Hello everyone,

Perhaps there will be no better time than now for us to chime in with a few thoughts and explanations from the Bush Pilot Brewing side of things.

First of all, no hard feelings whatsoever in regards to previous comments and criticism - like you folks, we too are consumers and craft beer drinkers and as such, sometimes less than impressed with products and brands we experience.
Therefore, each and every attempt to provide us with feedback about our beers and overall brand are wholeheartedly and sincerely welcome. We do follow Bar Towel, as well as other relevant sites, just like many others brewers do - there is some very good information to be harvested from these sources which helps us to adjust our course and to re-align the compass. There is nothing worse than silence, total darkness and a vacuum - so let’s keep the line open.

However hard we try, it is almost impossible to extrapolate any info from the feedback provided by well intentioned folks who happen to form an opinion (positive or negative) on our beers without actually trying them.

Mind you, we all make a decision not purchase a beer, see a movie or download a book based on someone else’s experience or review. We fully expect that some people will not buy or try our beer because of what they read on BA or Untappd posted, just as well as the positive reviews might influence purchasing decisions.

To judge or to label us in any way, as “gimmicky” or anything else, is certainly a prerogative that any consumer should be free to enjoy, but as a brewery we find this as helpful as a truck load of compliments for our Stormy Monday coming from an individual who has not tried the beer.

Quite a few posts suggest new breweries should stick with less complex styles when it comes to their first beers. It is hard to fault this reasoning from any viewpoint - be it from the angle of business, market situation, knowledge, infrastructure and so on. On the other hand, there so many voices that advocate that newcomers should be brewing big and bold.

Our decision to take a somewhat unorthodox course is based on several factors, of which some are quite simple and personal, such as the fact we love to drink big beers.

For those who did not have a chance to visit our web site or to otherwise learn a thing or two about us, let us share with you a few key elements of our brand - we have been blessed with a fantastic opportunity to co-brew with some really amazing and incredibly talented craft-brewers. Our first beer, Stormy Monday (Calvados barrel aged, spiced barley wine), was co-produced with Anders Kissmeyer who created some highly rated beers during his tenure with Nørrebro Bryghus. Our second beer, soon to be bottled Norseman (Armagnac barrel aged eisbock) was co-created with Nøgne Ø’s Kjetil Jikiun.
One would argue that their experience and track record would allow us and give us the impetus to embark onto a more “dangerous” mission instead of “learning to walk” by brewing “simpler” styles.

We also had a sense of duty, as folks who tried many of Anders’ and Kjetil’s amazing beers, to create an exciting playing field where it they could have some fun too. It was a privilege to brew side by side with them and we are grateful that they shared our dream and took some risks to push the envelope and try something new.

From the infrastructure viewpoint - it is no secret that we contract brew at Nickel Brook. Not only that they have a pretty well tweaked brewhouse, their packaging line is fantastic. Add to this their hardworking, experienced and talented brewers headed by Ryan Morrow who brews some of Ontario’s most exciting beers and the support of the Romano brothers who own the plant - we certainly do not feel we were just starting.

Speaking from a strictly consumer viewpoint - contract brewing should not disqualify any beer or brand. Mikkeller, 8 Wired, De Struise, Evil Twin, we certainly have much appreciation for names that started as contract breweries or still do not have their own facility. There are many convincing examples of really excellent beer made and packed next to a very unconvincing mainstream lager, all under the same roof.

We are thankful to all those who tried our Stormy Monday and Test Flight 7, hopefully some of you will try the Norseman (although we’re not sure how much we will set aside for this market). The 2013 batch of our Stormy Monday has just been bottled and we will be curious to receive feedback on this slightly tweaked recipe.

Keep in touch, please let us know what you think, what you would like us to brew and so on.

Have a Happy Valentine’s Day!

iguenard · Post by **iguenard** » Fri Feb 14, 2014 8:11 pm

BlackRedGold wrote:
squeaky wrote: Seems like Quebec, as a rule, can't make a decent IPA..
I'm going to guess you haven't been to Quebec in the past year. Moralite, Yakima, Leo's, Catapulte, Jukebox, Sabotage, Disco Soleil, End of the Road. All better than decent.

Hahaha this is the most appalling comment I have ever read on this site.

Sqeaky, you need to come over to my house for a weekend and get beerducated

Black's list is a good STARTING point.

iguenard · Post by **iguenard** » Fri Feb 14, 2014 8:43 pm

Tapsucker · Post by **Tapsucker** » Fri Feb 14, 2014 9:09 pm

Belgian wrote:
And eff you! (just kidding) I don't know why immature, sweet belgian ales (< not named after me) are so popular there, except that Montrealers must really like the taste of unattenuated malt sugars, yeast and booze.

I wasn't really out to bash Belgian styles. No I don't prefer them, but I will always take an opportunity to try a new beer and I've had some winners. While I haven't done the Abbey-tour vacations some here have talked about, I have had occasion to sample beers in Brussels, closer to the source. I think my point was more that, while all styles, poorly executed are disappointing, I think Belgian beers are less forgiving. In addition, they are the fad beer in Quebec and I wonder if it's because the beer drinkers there just don't know they are being passed off a sloppy effort and being told that off flavours and booze is the character of the style.

Belgian wrote: No man that's 'living the dream.' Continue to abuse your liver...

^ this is also why I love ordering sample trays at Vices et Versa, and being able to order "galopin" and "verre" sizes which are much more widely accepted around Montreal. A disgusting beer served in just a few oz is still good conversation.

Four were in a float, the other two were pints. Fortunately the one good one was a pint. No matter, I hiked over to Dieu du ciel to wash my mouth out afterwards.

iguenard · Post by **iguenard** » Fri Feb 14, 2014 9:25 pm

Tapsucker wrote:
Belgian wrote:
And eff you! (just kidding) I don't know why immature, sweet belgian ales (< not named after me) are so popular there, except that Montrealers must really like the taste of unattenuated malt sugars, yeast and booze.
I wasn't really out to bash Belgian styles. No I don't prefer them, but I will always take an opportunity to try a new beer and I've had some winners. While I haven't done the Abbey-tour vacations some here have talked about, I have had occasion to sample beers in Brussels, closer to the source. I think my point was more that, while all styles, poorly executed are disappointing, I think Belgian beers are less forgiving. In addition, they are the fad beer in Quebec and I wonder if it's because the beer drinkers there just don't know they are being passed off a sloppy effort and being told that off flavours and booze is the character of the style.

Belgian wrote: No man that's 'living the dream.' Continue to abuse your liver...

^ this is also why I love ordering sample trays at Vices et Versa, and being able to order "galopin" and "verre" sizes which are much more widely accepted around Montreal. A disgusting beer served in just a few oz is still good conversation.
Four were in a float, the other two were pints. Fortunately the one good one was a pint. No matter, I hiked over to Dieu du ciel to wash my mouth out afterwards.

Beer drinkers in Quebec have access to St-Bernardus 12, Rochefort 8 and 10, Orval and Chimay blue year round at the SAQ.

I think its just what the clientele is asking for... belgian beers were probably a gateway beer for most of the people on this site. Gotta respect our roots.

midlife crisis · Post by **midlife crisis** » Fri Feb 14, 2014 9:34 pm

midlife crisis wrote:
squeaky wrote:I'd rather see new breweries take some cracks at more established styles we don't get much of in Ontario. Why not try a saison or a brown? Maybe a sessionable porter or stout? Or a Gose?.
Exactly what Left Field did, and it's been successful. Came out of the gate with a very good brown ale - the best in the province by my lights.

Another example would be Block 3 Brewing. Their first beer was a saison and it is still their primary product I believe.

Craig · Post by **Craig** » Fri Feb 14, 2014 9:56 pm

iguenard wrote:
BlackRedGold wrote:
squeaky wrote: Seems like Quebec, as a rule, can't make a decent IPA..
I'm going to guess you haven't been to Quebec in the past year. Moralite, Yakima, Leo's, Catapulte, Jukebox, Sabotage, Disco Soleil, End of the Road. All better than decent.
Hahaha this is the most appalling comment I have ever read on this site.

Sqeaky, you need to come over to my house for a weekend and get beerducated

Black's list is a good STARTING point.

What? Obviously there are some good IPAs in Quebec. The point was when I try random unknowns in Quebec I usually come away unimpressed. I've had Yakima before and liked it, I've had Moralite (which was brewed with the HF folks, so I don't really know what that's supposed to prove about the province in general) as BRG probably knows and I loved it. Is it somewhat telling that three of the five beers you picked to highlight were collaborations with foreign brewers?

I've also had lots of shitty IPAs in Quebec, including some on the list you posted. Many of them are very mediocre, and the RB scores reflect it. The 94 overall is impressive until you notice it's a 51 on style.

Craig · Post by **Craig** » Fri Feb 14, 2014 9:57 pm

That said, I would happy to come over and drink your beer in the name of education. Very happy.

iguenard · Post by **iguenard** » Fri Feb 14, 2014 10:05 pm

squeaky wrote:That said, I would happy to come over and drink your beer in the name of education. Very happy.

Let me know when your in town

iguenard · Post by **iguenard** » Fri Feb 14, 2014 10:10 pm

squeaky wrote:
iguenard wrote:
BlackRedGold wrote: I'm going to guess you haven't been to Quebec in the past year. Moralite, Yakima, Leo's, Catapulte, Jukebox, Sabotage, Disco Soleil, End of the Road. All better than decent.
Hahaha this is the most appalling comment I have ever read on this site.

Sqeaky, you need to come over to my house for a weekend and get beerducated

Black's list is a good STARTING point.
What? Obviously there are some good IPAs in Quebec. The point was when I try random unknowns in Quebec I usually come away unimpressed. I've had Yakima before and liked it, I've had Moralite (which was brewed with the HF folks, so I don't really know what that's supposed to prove about the province in general) as BRG probably knows and I loved it. Is it somewhat telling that three of the five beers you picked to highlight were collaborations with foreign brewers?

I've also had lots of shitty IPAs in Quebec, including some on the list you posted. Many of them are very mediocre, and the RB scores reflect it. The 94 overall is impressive until you notice it's a 51 on style.

You guys have sleeman IPA and I am sure trafalgar has a couple tries on its belt.

Your point did not come very well across what you were quoted as saying. But since I havent read your original post, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt

atomeyes · Post by **atomeyes** » Sat Feb 15, 2014 7:35 am

i agree with the generalization that Quebec traditionally sucks at making IPA. but yeah, they've likely turned the corner in the past 6-12 months.
now, find me a good tripel or quad made in Ontario. THAT shocks the hell out of me. no clue why no one dares to make one

Bytowner · Post by **Bytowner** » Sat Feb 15, 2014 7:35 am

After a cursory glance through the Quebec ratings I'd be really interested in seeing an analysis of homer ratings across provinces. I find Quebecers are always shouting about the quality of their beers, many of which have been extremely 'meh' for me. Then again, some of the lower ratings for many of those beers are from Ontarians, maybe we're just dicks to everyone (with a special amount of dickitude for our own brewers). I'm probably wrong, but there seems to be a pattern in some of those beers.

The Bar Towel

Mediocre Beer

Re: le beer de le drink to le hammered

Re: le beer de le drink to le hammered