In what intersection should Toronto's next brew pub open?

[Bobsy]

Maybe north of Danforth on Broadview would be better... Or else east of Pape on Danforth. East of Pape might have the best accessibility all round. A possibly visionary choice in an area that seems poised to change quickly, along with skyrocketing home values.

I'm not so sure about that. The stretch of Danforth from Greenwood to just East of Pape isn't the highlight of the strip. There's a whole tonne of assisted housing in the area (which I have no issue with), but I expect has negatively affected the strip because of lower income levels, and exerted downward pressure on home value.

I would not wish it on any business to take the plunge on Danforth East (nearer Woodbine or Coxwell) because that area hasn't happened commercially at all AFAIK. It's closer to me, so I wish it were happening, but I deliberately did not buy along east Danforth because the area still feels sketchy as it did 12 years ago and I rarely spend money there myself though I pass through often. My 2¢.

This is my strip, but I think it's more than neighbourhood pride that makes me disagree with you. The area between Monarch Park and Woodbine is gentrifying at a rapid rate, and the new stores seem to be sticking, while the derelict store fronts are becoming less and less. Just on a beer side, the area has added Morgans, the Wren and Sauce. You've got a patisserie and Red Rocket at one end and at the other you've got an awesome organic food store, great toy store and WAG which just won an award from NOW as the city's best pet store.

I've never noticed anything dodgy going on, and from what I can see of my new neighbours, income levels are skyrocketing, while the average age is sinking. So, all of that plus the success of the craft beer ventures in the neighbourhood make me think it would be primo for a brewpub. I'd lovate it halfway between Coxwell and Woodbine.

You should definitely spend more time in the hood, Belgian. I think you'd be pleasantly surprised.

[Craig]

Guys, Danforth East already has a brewery. The Left Field open house is this weekend not far from Donlands. Plus there are plenty of excellent craft beer options in the area already. The Only, Wren, Sarah's, Morgan's, Sauce and The Only again because it's that good. If you go further East where the rent is cheaper, the locals get less friendly. There's a very large Muslim population there, which could limit your support from locals. Also, while TTC is pretty good out there, driving there sorta sucks, which limits the appeal of bottle sales to the greater area.

I'd be looking at Queen East. The Beaches would be terrific if you could afford it, but Leslieville would work if you couldn't. Bars in the area get good support from locals if they're good and driving there is easy enough with Eastern providing easy access. The location Stratengers is currently wasting away in seems perfect for it, as does where where the Duke is.

I'd aslo look a little further West. Anywhere between Jarvis and the DVP probably has reasonable rent and good prospects with all the developments happening in the West Donlands. Plus it's close to the DVP for driving access and close enough to Yonge and the subway for transit access.

[Belgian]

The area between Monarch Park and Woodbine is gentrifying at a rapid rate, and the new stores seem to be sticking, while the derelict store fronts are becoming less and less. Just on a beer side, the area has added Morgans, the Wren and Sauce. You've got a patisserie and Red Rocket at one end and at the other you've got an awesome organic food store, great toy store and WAG which just won an award from NOW as the city's best pet store.

I've never noticed anything dodgy going on, and from what I can see of my new neighbours, income levels are skyrocketing, while the average age is sinking. So, all of that plus the success of the craft beer ventures in the neighbourhood make me think it would be primo for a brewpub. I'd (locate) it halfway between Coxwell and Woodbine.

You should definitely spend more time in the hood, Belgian. I think you'd be pleasantly surprised.

Well good. I will make some research trips out around Monarch Park area to get over my cold feet if only because I am interested what's going on. Brew pub-wise, I am definitely biased by The Only Cafe which always felt very connected to the Greektown strip, and seems an easy spill-over point for specifically keeping a brew pub in business. I mean so many dining options are within staggering distance, Bobsy it's a nice package deal.

[atomeyes]

I've never noticed anything dodgy going on, and from what I can see of my new neighbours, income levels are skyrocketing, while the average age is sinking.

there's a huge level of dodginess. OATC just opened a clinic east of the Wren. OATC is addiction (namely, heroin/opiate) treatment. I work with the girl who helped open that clinic. says it is one of the sketchier clientelle she's seen. it is also quite busy already, meaning that the area was underserviced, meaning that there are mote opiate addicts in your hood than you know.

fret not. i live at pape and o'connor. just learned during the summer that there was likely a small prostitution ring happening at Pape and Cosburn. also went to the pharmacy to get travel meds and was buttinskied by a girl buying a one pack of 1 cc short syringes (the needle of choice for heroin users). i asked the pharmacist if he sells a lot and yep, he does. heroin everywhere!

[atomeyes]

The area between Monarch Park and Woodbine is gentrifying at a rapid rate, and the new stores seem to be sticking, while the derelict store fronts are becoming less and less. Just on a beer side, the area has added Morgans, the Wren and Sauce. You've got a patisserie and Red Rocket at one end and at the other you've got an awesome organic food store, great toy store and WAG which just won an award from NOW as the city's best pet store.

I've never noticed anything dodgy going on, and from what I can see of my new neighbours, income levels are skyrocketing, while the average age is sinking. So, all of that plus the success of the craft beer ventures in the neighbourhood make me think it would be primo for a brewpub. I'd (locate) it halfway between Coxwell and Woodbine.

You should definitely spend more time in the hood, Belgian. I think you'd be pleasantly surprised.

Well good. I will make some research trips out around Monarch Park area to get over my cold feet if only because I am interested what's going on. Brew pub-wise, I am definitely biased by The Only Cafe which always felt very connected to the Greektown strip, and seems an easy spill-over point for specifically keeping a brew pub in business. I mean so many dining options are within staggering distance, Bobsy it's a nice package deal.

coxwell and danforth is a hot real estate market. The Pocket is a hot first-buyer neighbourhood. Little India further south is also incredibly hot.

as a regular at the Only, I couldn't disagree more about your comment that it feels very connect to the Greektown strip. Greektown is douchebag central. i live a 15 min walk from there and avoid it like the plague. no great restaurants. hate the parking and driving situation. if CC wasn't there, we'd probably never have any need to enter GTown. whereas the Only is as laid back as a Toronto bar can get and, vibe-wise, is probably the best bar in the city. it's our Cheers.

[Belgian]

^ geez atom so much love for greektown, I gotta wear shades around you. I think we've got to talk about the economic reality of business placement rather than how much we personally like an area, or not.

We may not 100% agree, but it's great we're here to share opinions. I actually put some offers on homes around Donlands/Danforth as well as Cox/Danforth, and yes the market was already hot back then and I've only seen it escalate over 12 years. Though I still don't know if Wood/Dan is a place I could see a brew pub just yet, that's just my vibe on the area that it feels too isolated. I could imagine foot traffic closer to Pape (some of it douche traffic, or not - it couldn't hurt the place's survival is all I'm thinking and such an institution might help further 'anchor' he east-o-pape strip.)

aside: I really wanted this one house on Ravina, speaking of The Pocket. The Only Cafe after-party would be at my house had I an extra few hundred K laying around.

[Craig]

I almost put an offer in on a place on Ravina about 14 months ago. Nice street. The house needed a reno though, whoever was selling it attempted the cheapest reno to flip I had ever seen. I was worried about what I would find under the walls.

Instead I got a smaller place in Leslieville that I worry about what I will find under the walls.

The only two 'hoods I could find in the city I wanted to live in and I could find a house for less than 600k.

[Belgian]

I've never noticed anything dodgy going on, and from what I can see of my new neighbours, income levels are skyrocketing, while the average age is sinking.

there's a huge level of dodginess. OATC just opened (namely, heroin/opiate) treatment....
fret not. i live at pape and o'connor. just learned during the summer that there was likely a small prostitution ring happening at Pape and Cosburn... heroin everywhere!...

Just want to add that by 'sketchy' I meant as a commercial prospect along east Danforth, was not saying that I experienced a lot of 'the element' - druggies, pros, people out making trouble. Though that's interesting and not unexpected, a big city is a multi-layered environment. I think once Danforth-Coxwell establish a strong commercial area that has an economic importance to the city, there will be some police presence keeping that main strip somewhat less grubby, not to mention reaping the windfall from parking tickets... Lamborghinis parked in no-standing zones AKA conspicuous waste...

[Belgian]

I almost put an offer in on a place on Ravina...

Instead I got a smaller place in Leslieville that I worry about what I will find under the walls.

The only two 'hoods I could find in the city I wanted to live in and I could find a house for less than 600k.

Think you did OK. You can replace walls, but land is getting precious - those same type houses 12 years ago were 200-300k. Yup, a narrow semi on Milverton W of Donlands went for 230k in a multiple offer... one on Alton north of Queen went for about the same. Both great locations today (Only Cafe, Ceili Cottage.)

[Craig]

A place down the street from me just went. The place is the same size, but it has slightly nicer finish and a second bathroom, where my place has a finished basement. They asked 70k more than I paid and got over asking (my place went like 80k over asking, that was pretty standard at the time) only a year after I bought.

The moral so far seems to be that I did pretty well and I'm lucky I got in when I did or everything would have been priced out of my range. We'll see how I feel in a few years.

[TwoPint]

Though I still don't know if Wood/Dan is a place I could see a brew pub just yet

I agree that a brewpub wouldn't be viable right now but there are three condo developments in the works in the immediate area. Once those are populated you're going to see business in the neighbourhood really perk up.

[Bobsy]

Though I still don't know if Wood/Dan is a place I could see a brew pub just yet

I agree that a brewpub wouldn't be viable right now but there are three condo developments in the works in the immediate area. Once those are populated you're going to see business in the neighbourhood really perk up.

I'm not so sure. Looking at how popular places like Morgans, Sauce and (in particular) The Wren are, I can't help but think the community is into this kind of thing and willing to back it to the hilt. Check out somewhere like The Wren - it's bursting at the seams even on a Tuesday night. Get the formula right like those guys did and you're on to a winner.

Don't forget a starter home in the hood is now going far north of $500k. Unless you're house poor, you're looking at a young, professional demographic, which can spell $$$ if done right.

I'd actually bet pretty heavily on this area right now. Anyone who gets established before the competition would be a savvy businessperson, especially if they set up shop a decent walk to the east of the three joints I mentioned. Belgian mentioned a spill-over effect, and I'd view this as the next expansion of the craft scene from an area with a proven base.

[zane9]

Toronto's next brewpub should open in Hamilton. 520,000 people. No brewpub.

Thank you. That is all.

[Belgian]

Don't forget a starter home in the hood is now going far north of $500k. Unless you're house poor, you're looking at a young, professional demographic, which can spell $$$ if done right.

That's roughly doubled in 10-12 years, and prices weren't that low to begin with. I wonder how many of us have doubled our income in that time?

Assuming a higher household debt to income ratio, a coming rise of interest rates and a softening of prices & demand, it could be a worse or better area. Although I'm inclined to think the average owner buying in is, as you say becoming more affluent out there in semi-town, er I mean East York. You don't see those competitve bids and stiff prices unless people with solid finances are lining up to buy. And they need something local and fun to do.

[JerCraigs]

opening in the sticks is actually the smartest thing to do. lower rent, for starters. and you're the only awesome pub in Mississauga? people will go. just look at what's opened in Barrie and other smaller cities recently.

Unless it has changed a lot in the last little while, Mississauga is not capable of supporting a good beer bar/brewpub solely on the basis of beer. It will need to attract a lot of non-drinkers and people there for the food. It also doesn't help that half of your target audience has to drive to your establishment because transit is still lacking in Mississauga despite significant improvements over the years.