In what intersection should Toronto's next brew pub open?

[atomeyes]

We all know that we're in the middle of a beer explosion. It's "rumoured" (i.e. unless things fizzle on the financial side, they're opening) that up to 4 brewpubs are opening in the west end.

Where do you think a brewpub should go? Where would it thrive?

Yesterday, i wondered if one in Greektown would be absolutely brilliant. the rent's the only drawback.

I've also thought Danforth East and Leslieville as 2 other smart locations, and kind of like the idea of Broadview and Gerrard (lots of buildings for rent, space is available, not far from the subway/streetcar)

[Tapsucker]

North York, say Yonge and Sheppard is a wasteland. It could really use a decent beer spot. The question is, would the locals go?

I spoke to a long time bar owner who said that things are tough. New condo dwellers are supplanting the old time resident clientele and they are not going out and supporting the businesses.

[JeffPorter]

Steeles and 410 in Brampton!

Kidding...that will never happen...
I was actually thinking about this a while ago while I was at the Rhino. Considering the hipster density of West Queen West (including Parkdale), I don't think it has all that much. The Rhino's great, but other than that and Bellwoods, there isn't much else around.

Also, while the Victory's great, I've always found the Annex to be not that great in terms of bars and restuarants. If you think about the stretch from Koreatown, going east even into Yorkdale, there isn't much, which is strange considering the foot traffic of the area.

Other than that, yeah, North York is definitely a wasteland...And Yonge and Sheppard or even Yonge and Eg could use something.

I'm just waiting for Moosehead to give up on Hop City and have someone great take that brewery over.

[TheSevenDuffs]

Steeles and 410 in Brampton!

I know you were joking but it is ridiculous that Mississauga and Brampton are pretty much craft beer waste lands despite a combined population of over 1 Million people. There isn't a single craft beer bar in Mississauga that is worth visiting and I don't think there is one in Brampton either. A brewpub in either location would be very welcome

[Belgian]

Where do you think a brewpub should go? Where would it thrive?

Yesterday, i wondered if one in Greektown would be absolutely brilliant. the rent's the only drawback.

Danforth East and Leslieville as 2 other smart locations, and kind of like the idea of Broadview and Gerrard ...

Danforth Greektown = parking-nazi opportunists, high rents and a bit too much Ferrari douchebag factor on Saturday nights. Although great subway access.

Maybe north of Danforth on Broadview would be better... Or else east of Pape on Danforth. East of Pape might have the best accessibility all round. A possibly visionary choice in an area that seems poised to change quickly, along with skyrocketing home values.

I would not wish it on any business to take the plunge on Danforth East (nearer Woodbine or Coxwell) because that area hasn't happened commercially at all AFAIK. It's closer to me, so I wish it were happening, but I deliberately did not buy along east Danforth because the area still feels sketchy as it did 12 years ago and I rarely spend money there myself though I pass through often. My 2¢.

Leslieville/Riverside and the connecting area to the west Beaches, yes I totally see that if the right vision is involved. Nobody told Patrick at Ceili Cottage he couldn't convert a grubby old garage into a wonderful cozy irish pub, and that's the resourcefulness and style that area will reward with lineups and happy regulars - bring it!

The Beaches desperately needs + an establishment or two to help anchor it as a 'scene', and that's been decades overdue. Along Queen East a reasonably-priced gastro-pub with its own brews would be something sophisticated and new, and adding a legit coffee bar would not hurt the day traffic. Castros offers good beer, Hogtown Smoke gorgeous food, there isn't much else out this way. I think local residents are skeptical because of the high turnover and often mediocre business plans, and people here tend to stay in or go downtown, so it's a tough market. You'd have to hit a home run, like Hogtown or Kaplansky's, something that is an undeniable hit - there's no mercy for the weak.

Up on Kingston Road/ Vic Park we've still got The Feathers, a 1981 'brew pub' I guess which now has barely a few basic things on tap. It is a long-surviving local draw, all dart boards and single malts, and maybe well before its time as a brew pub & very english in a way you will care for or you won't. I can walk there from my house but I rarely go there - yet I think this area has high walking traffic potential.

^ So... that's the East End... I've watched real estate values soar and I can tell you the money here is not going anywhere if you'll help people to spend it creatively.

[Belgian]

thinking about this a while ago while I was at the Rhino. Considering the hipster density of West Queen West (including Parkdale), I don't think it has all that much. The Rhino's great, but other than that and Bellwoods, there isn't much else around.

Despite the unfortunate use of 'hipster' applied in every other sentence - I mean who do I know cultivates an efféte lumberjack look? - I agree west queen west seems to have lots of upward expansion for new brew pubs partly precisely because it's so weirdly non-corporate arty fun and cool out there, and businesses could take creative chances to give themselves a unique edge rather than trying to play too safe. Anyway that would be cool and I would get out & support that!

[toweringpine]

Bloor between Royal York and Kipling

I moved from there five years ago. Since then there are ( at least ) six new condo towers. My work is still in the area. The boss buys a building and holds on just until the developers buy it to build another tower. Our shop will be moving again in the spring. Kipling station is soon to be redeveloped and turned into a better hub. The whole area is undergoing a massive facelift and plenty of money is moving in plus there is plenty of established wealth along The Kingsway and Thorncrest neighborhoods. It may seem a long ways to the downtown crowd but once you are on the subway whether it is a couple stops or right to the end of the line doesn't make a big difference. There are loads of younger folks buying in the area that spend all day downtown and would love to have a decent place to call their own in the neighborhood.[/img]

[atomeyes]

thinking about this a while ago while I was at the Rhino. Considering the hipster density of West Queen West (including Parkdale), I don't think it has all that much. The Rhino's great, but other than that and Bellwoods, there isn't much else around.

Despite the unfortunate use of 'hipster' applied in every other sentence - I mean who do I know cultivates an efféte lumberjack look? - I agree west queen west seems to have lots of upward expansion for new brew pubs partly precisely because it's so weirdly non-corporate arty fun and cool out there, and businesses could take creative chances to give themselves a unique edge rather than trying to play too safe. Anyway that would be cool and I would get out & support that!

Jeff, your entire post is interesting.

First westQueenWest: there is something going up across from the Rhino. that's one of the new brewpubs on its way. the problem with wQw is the city is no longer granting new liquor licenses. they don't want more bars/restos opening up in that area. incredibly short sighted of the idiots at city hall. their quotes are hilarious. basically, they said that bars are driving out mom and pop stores and it will be impossible to buy a lightbulb in wQw due to the wave of restos/bars opening up. guess they never heard of organic growth? sigh...

opening in the sticks is actually the smartest thing to do. lower rent, for starters. and you're the only awesome pub in Mississauga? people will go. just look at what's opened in Barrie and other smaller cities recently.

[atomeyes]

Danforth Greektown = parking-nazi opportunists, high rents and a bit too much Ferrari douchebag factor on Saturday nights. Although great subway access.

Bellwoods is surrounded by streets where you can't park after midnight. Danforth isn't. Bellwoods has streetcar access. Danforth is direct subway access. so i don't buy that argument.

Maybe north of Danforth on Broadview would be better... Or else east of Pape on Danforth. East of Pape might have the best accessibility all round. A possibly visionary choice in an area that seems poised to change quickly, along with skyrocketing home values.

you're a local, so you probably see the strip north of the Broadview subway station as the place where bad ideas go to die. other than Broadview Espresso, i've never seen anything near there thrive.

I would not wish it on any business to take the plunge on Danforth East (nearer Woodbine or Coxwell) because that area hasn't happened commercially at all AFAIK. It's closer to me, so I wish it were happening, but I deliberately did not buy along east Danforth because the area still feels sketchy as it did 12 years ago and I rarely spend money there myself though I pass through often. My 2¢.

someone had the same quote for Parkdale 15 years ago, i'd bet.

the thing about the Bloor subway line is that it is bloody obvious. you're convenient travel-wise. so i see it as only a matter of time before it becomes a hot area. Bloor and Dufferin's already on the upswing, and it was a gross area 10 years ago.

Up on Kingston Road/ Vic Park ...

way too far. totally limiting your reach. no one in the west end would go there. no one can take ttc to drink there

[TwoPint]

Maybe north of Danforth on Broadview would be better... Or else east of Pape on Danforth. East of Pape might have the best accessibility all round. A possibly visionary choice in an area that seems poised to change quickly, along with skyrocketing home values.

What about The Only Café? It's listed as a nanobrewery in planning in the Momnhops' Brewers Directory. The adjacent store has its windows papered over so something is going on. As to accessibility, it's right at the Donlands subway station.

[liamt07]

How 'bout something up by my way?

Toronto Brewing over on Chesswood is damn close, and there a ton of industrial/commercial space in that area. Bring something else to North York.

[JeffPorter]

thinking about this a while ago while I was at the Rhino. Considering the hipster density of West Queen West (including Parkdale), I don't think it has all that much. The Rhino's great, but other than that and Bellwoods, there isn't much else around.

Despite the unfortunate use of 'hipster' applied in every other sentence - I mean who do I know cultivates an efféte lumberjack look? - I agree west queen west seems to have lots of upward expansion for new brew pubs partly precisely because it's so weirdly non-corporate arty fun and cool out there, and businesses could take creative chances to give themselves a unique edge rather than trying to play too safe. Anyway that would be cool and I would get out & support that!

You're right. I guess I meant "trendy" and sometimes a little "touristy", in terms of the bar scene. We often spend lots of time shopping on that stretch east of trinity bellwoods - great shops and stores, and when you get hungry for lunch we often just trek down to the Rhino or go to Milagro. Both of them good, but you expect more choice.

While I love GE, we usually need some place bigger and quieter with the kids.

[JeffPorter]

Steeles and 410 in Brampton!

I know you were joking but it is ridiculous that Mississauga and Brampton are pretty much craft beer waste lands despite a combined population of over 1 Million people. There isn't a single craft beer bar in Mississauga that is worth visiting and I don't think there is one in Brampton either. A brewpub in either location would be very welcome

One that isn't Tracks... No, the best tap selection is Jack Astor's at 7 and 410. I'd also argue that the most packed restaurant/pub too.

[Belgian]

I would not wish it on any business to take the plunge on Danforth East (nearer Woodbine or Coxwell) because that area hasn't happened commercially at all AFAIK. It's closer to me, so I wish it were happening, but I deliberately did not buy along east Danforth because the area still feels sketchy as it did 12 years ago and I rarely spend money there myself though I pass through often. My 2¢.

someone had the same quote for Parkdale 15 years ago, i'd bet.

the thing about the Bloor subway line is that it is bloody obvious. you're convenient travel-wise. so i see it as only a matter of time before it becomes a hot area. Bloor and Dufferin's already on the upswing, and it was a gross area 10 years ago.

A matter of how much time, is the question. The long-established Danforth subway line hasn't made that much difference so far, development appears stagnant to the east. I would not jump in there just yet with a business - would prefer the area east of Pape / west of Donlands, that would logically be the initial area of growth. If you notice, hot new areas seem to always extend right from other hot areas or - like your example Parkdale - connect between them. There's only so much central Toronto to sell and the buyers keep arriving.

Believe me I wish more things were happening further east or in the Beach, because it's a great area to live in many ways that the west end does not offer. Matter of time, I guess potential is there for more 'local phenomena' to occur like The Feathers and Ceili and Hogtown Smoke. If we have enough out this way, why would we go to The Rhino and Grand Electric? We're as lazy as anyone else...

[icemachine]

I find it odd how desolate Yonge is for decent beer bars north of Eglinton really, I know part of it is population density, but you'd think the NYCC area could support a couple decent places