Ontario election discussions

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atomeyes
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Ontario election discussions

Postby atomeyes » Sat May 17, 2014 8:12 am

Perhaps we should discuss what parties are/aren't doing regarding the local beer and wine industry and privatization of The Beer Store/LCBO.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/o ... -1.2645330

Interesting quote from the article.

PC Leader Tim Hudak a year and a half ago called for an end to the LCBO and Beer Store "monopolies," telling reporters he would allow beer, wine and spirits to be sold at corner stores.

But the Tories have made no mention of opening up alcohol sales since this election campaign kicked off, and Hudak rebuffed questions on the issue at his platform kick-off this week.


The Liberals and NDP have also stayed silent about any plans they may have to change how alcohol is sold in Ontario. Liberal Leader Kathleen Wynne and NDP Leader Andrea Horwath were both asked by the Toronto Star where they stood in December, both said they weren't planning any changes.


with the apparent traction the anti-TBS side's had lately, I'm very surprised to see the Conservatives back away from their initial propsals.
toweringpine
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Postby toweringpine » Sat May 17, 2014 11:09 am

I thought it was odd that no one has put forth a platform on how they will address booze sales.

If Hudak is going to turf 100,000 public servants disbanding the LCBO would be a great start and would probably lead to a higher number ( of admittedly lower paying ) jobs in that sector. I can't understand why he isn't pitching this. Everyone keeps talking about how we will lose services if such a deep cut is made but this would be such an easy way to show how he could get rid of a lot of public servants without cutting any sort of services at all. He seems to have decent ideas but is completely inept at getting his message across effectively. If he hasn't learned that since the last election I am very unsure he can be an effective leader.

Quite frankly all the options suck in this election and as silly as it is, my vote could totally be swayed by a party that promises to overhaul TBS & LCBO. This campaign is so short there is not much time to effectively get the message out on how to revamp things so they are just sticking with simple talking points that make good sound bites.
Philip1
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Postby Philip1 » Sat May 17, 2014 11:43 am

They had a debate on this the other night on TVO's Studio 2. Listening to the likes of Howard Hampton reminded me of just how parochial and puritanical Ontarians can be. Did you know that if we allow the private sector to sell beer Ontario will end up like inner city Buffalo? When Ontarians travel overseas (the small minority who actually have passports) it must shock them to their core to see beer actually being sold in normal food stores. My God, these foreigners have no morals! The show's emphasis on preventing young people from drinking would have astonished any foreign visitor. Recently an Irish woman I know was denied beer at the LCBO. She's in her mid-20s. Because she's here on a work visa and doesn't have all the usual forms of ID she always carries some photographic ID. But none of it counted as "real ID". Her aunt, who was with her, tried to buy it but she was also denied because it was obvious she was buying for the person without "real ID". I wonder how many tourists to this province go home telling tales of being denied the right to buy a beer in puritan Ontario.

The fact that Hudak is not talking about this indicates that he's looked at polls and concluded that most Ontarians are against any kind of change.
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Postby ercousin » Sat May 17, 2014 11:50 am

+1 All the options kinda suck and I could probably also be swayed by TBS/LCBO makeover.
sprague11
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Re: Ontario election discussions

Postby sprague11 » Sat May 17, 2014 1:02 pm

atomeyes wrote:
with the apparent traction the anti-TBS side's had lately, I'm very surprised to see the Conservatives back away from their initial propsals.


Not me - a little "change your stance" corporate donation goes a long way.
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Postby midlife crisis » Sat May 17, 2014 1:13 pm

toweringpine wrote:I thought it was odd that no one has put forth a platform on how they will address booze sales.

If Hudak is going to turf 100,000 public servants disbanding the LCBO would be a great start and would probably lead to a higher number ( of admittedly lower paying ) jobs in that sector. I can't understand why he isn't pitching this. Everyone keeps talking about how we will lose services if such a deep cut is made but this would be such an easy way to show how he could get rid of a lot of public servants without cutting any sort of services at all. He seems to have decent ideas but is completely inept at getting his message across effectively. If he hasn't learned that since the last election I am very unsure he can be an effective leader.

Quite frankly all the options suck in this election and as silly as it is, my vote could totally be swayed by a party that promises to overhaul TBS & LCBO. This campaign is so short there is not much time to effectively get the message out on how to revamp things so they are just sticking with simple talking points that make good sound bites.


I agree with your sentiments but I don't think LCBO employees count as "public servants". They are employed by a Crown corporation, not directly by the province. The point being, cutting their jobs by disbanding the LCBO isn't going to reduce the deficit in the same way that cutting back on teachers, say, would. The LCBO is profitable.
atomeyes
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Re: Ontario election discussions

Postby atomeyes » Sat May 17, 2014 2:29 pm

sprague11 wrote:
atomeyes wrote:
with the apparent traction the anti-TBS side's had lately, I'm very surprised to see the Conservatives back away from their initial propsals.


Not me - a little "change your stance" corporate donation goes a long way.


that's what i'm now thinking.
maybe i'm watching House of Cards a bit too keenly. or maybe i'm cynical enough to know that there's a boatload of junksucking taking place behind the scenes and that dictates policies.
toweringpine
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Postby toweringpine » Sat May 17, 2014 11:05 pm

midlife crisis wrote:
toweringpine wrote:I thought it was odd that no one has put forth a platform on how they will address booze sales.

If Hudak is going to turf 100,000 public servants disbanding the LCBO would be a great start and would probably lead to a higher number ( of admittedly lower paying ) jobs in that sector. I can't understand why he isn't pitching this. Everyone keeps talking about how we will lose services if such a deep cut is made but this would be such an easy way to show how he could get rid of a lot of public servants without cutting any sort of services at all. He seems to have decent ideas but is completely inept at getting his message across effectively. If he hasn't learned that since the last election I am very unsure he can be an effective leader.

Quite frankly all the options suck in this election and as silly as it is, my vote could totally be swayed by a party that promises to overhaul TBS & LCBO. This campaign is so short there is not much time to effectively get the message out on how to revamp things so they are just sticking with simple talking points that make good sound bites.


I agree with your sentiments but I don't think LCBO employees count as "public servants". They are employed by a Crown corporation, not directly by the province. The point being, cutting their jobs by disbanding the LCBO isn't going to reduce the deficit in the same way that cutting back on teachers, say, would. The LCBO is profitable.


Since when did little details like truth and accuracy matter in al election campaign? 😉
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Postby Tapsucker » Sun May 18, 2014 12:37 pm

This is all about income.

The LCBO makes a lot of badly needed money for the Province.

The TBS provides a lot of campaign funding for the parties.

The rhetoric is the usual confusion of economic liberalism and social conservatism. Urban voters tend to vote economically and socially progressive so they are stuck with no party to really turn to and hence will prioritize other things over change in alcohol sales. Rural voters are generally in the opposite end so the PCs will have to chose between scooping them up with promising to tear down the government or scaring the "won't somebody think of the children" crowd.

Basically, this issue has no natural constituency, so the the parties are dodging it.

The TBS is the one place where a slight potential for change exists and they seem to know it based on their recent somewhat desperate ads. Even teetotallers are likely to be offended by their corporate monopoly as they learn more about it.
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ercousin
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Postby ercousin » Sun May 18, 2014 1:04 pm

This seems like the kind of thing that a craft brewery could challenge in a superior or supreme court. The government is blantantly favoring 3 companies out of over 100 by allowing only those 3 to own stores.
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Postby JeffPorter » Sun May 18, 2014 7:55 pm

I think a lot of people have been waiting for this election for some time, and it seems pretty, well, dull so far. There aren't a lot of issues being discussed and it's mostly and it's mostly Hudak bashing Wynne, while Wynne bashed everyone but Hudak, and Horvath and the NDP barely making a peep.

Not saying that an alcohol policy would sway me one way or the other completely, but it'd nice if someone mentioned it.
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JerCraigs
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Postby JerCraigs » Sun May 18, 2014 8:46 pm

ercousin wrote:This seems like the kind of thing that a craft brewery could challenge in a superior or supreme court. The government is blantantly favoring 3 companies out of over 100 by allowing only those 3 to own stores.


It would have to be the OCB or a group like the OCB, the litigation would just cost too much for a single brewery to do it.
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Belgian
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Postby Belgian » Sun May 18, 2014 9:19 pm

Tapsucker wrote:This is all about income.

The LCBO makes a lot of badly needed money for the Province.

The TBS provides a lot of campaign funding for the parties.

The rhetoric is the usual confusion of economic liberalism and social conservatism. Urban voters tend to vote economically and socially progressive so they are stuck with no party to really turn to and hence will prioritize other things over change in alcohol sales. Rural voters are generally in the opposite end so the PCs will have to chose between scooping them up with promising to tear down the government or scaring the "won't somebody think of the children" crowd.

Basically, this issue has no natural constituency, so the the parties are dodging it.

The TBS is the one place where a slight potential for change exists and they seem to know it based on their recent somewhat desperate ads. Even teetotallers are likely to be offended by their corporate monopoly as they learn more about it.

Nice clear explanation why politics are insane.
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atomeyes
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Postby atomeyes » Mon May 19, 2014 10:10 pm

http://www.thestar.com/news/ontario_ele ... hn.bb.html

Canada’s National Brewers (which speaks for The Beer Store) recently hired Emma Breen — a Hudak family friend and former political staffer in the Mike Harris government — as Ontario vice-president. The big brewers also donate tens of thousands of dollars every year to Ontario’s three main political parties. In 2012, the NDP received more than $38,000 in union donations from various arms of the UFCW union, including $6,000 from its local 12R24, which represents 6,000 workers at The Beer Store.


well, the ball's been dropped.
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Postby Bytowner » Tue May 20, 2014 7:45 am

JerCraigs wrote:
ercousin wrote:This seems like the kind of thing that a craft brewery could challenge in a superior or supreme court. The government is blantantly favoring 3 companies out of over 100 by allowing only those 3 to own stores.


It would have to be the OCB or a group like the OCB, the litigation would just cost too much for a single brewery to do it.


I actually saw a half-serious idea the other day from a lawyer about this:

1. Crowd-fund a private beer store (plus a whole lot extra)
2. Get shut down
3. Challenge the closure in the courts
4. Win and be a hero

There's substantial legal opinion that the current system isn't defensible before a judge or set of judges. Just takes someone with a hunk of cash who is missing the gene that forces the majority of Ontarians to live permanently bent over.
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