Fairness at the "Taps"

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groulxsome
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Postby groulxsome » Tue Sep 23, 2014 9:13 pm

Belgian wrote:
groulxsome wrote:I do not believe that “A pint contains 20 fl. oz. (568 ml) in Canada.” I think it generally contains 500 ml plus or minus 25 ml for foam.

Well that's funny because I'd call that a half liter. In Germany the shorthand is commonly "half", "quarter" or "third" for servings 500, 250 and 330ml - nice clear purchasing agreement, fill lines to assure the transaction, no guessing games.

I'd be happy to ban the word pint if we discarded the whole shell-game of Imperial pints, US Pints and all Mystery Pints - and if instead we had Euro-style metric glassware with fill lines. We can even call them half, third and (if ever done) quarter, referring to the fraction of a liter - just handier to yell while ordering in a loud place.


Yep, I call it a half liter somewhere in there, but I agree the Germans have it right for pour sizes. A quarter would often be much nicer for super big beers (looking at you Mikkeller Black), while a third would be great for most bigger beers.

Unfortunately is seems the Stone Cutters still run the beer game in Canada.
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ErkLR
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Postby ErkLR » Tue Sep 23, 2014 10:44 pm

Bars can sell in whatever volumes they like as far as I'm concerned, but I would like to make it mandatory that volumes are listed and glassware is marked. Customers can also use whatever sloppy language they like, but bars should only use the word "pint" if they have glasses that get about 568 mL to your hand (or half-pints 284, etc.).

I realize this means new glassware, but the law could be implemented in a reasonable way; eg) X months from now*, you must use calibrated glassware and list the volumes on the menu or in a visible location. It doesn't have to be done over-night.

*what's a reasonable turn-over time for glasses and menus; 6, 12, 24 months?
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Postby midlife crisis » Wed Sep 24, 2014 2:32 pm

groulxsome wrote:I wrote up a bit of a thing because I was having multiple conversations about this in multiple places (other beer forums, facebook, twitter) and I have some pretty strong feelings about it. I don't think Canada uses the 568 ml pint and I could not find a single branded glass in my house that was actually 568 ml. Most of the glasses I have are ideal for 500 ml of beer, with room for head.

Forget at the pumps, I have no way to pour a pint of homebrew by the government's definition and I've no shortage of glasses.

I took some pictures measuring glasses and stuff if anyone wants to see what I'm on about (not a clickbate thing, I don't even blog usually I just needed a pastebin with pictures/links). I would really like to know who decided a pint in Canada is "20 ounces" since most every glass I've come across is 500 ml.

http://transcanadabeer.wordpress.com/20 ... the-pumps/


Ah, but the thing is, the pint glasses in your pictures will most definitely hold 20 oz if filled to the brim (as you show in your second set of pictures). The historic reason, I think, is that there is no (or very little) head on an English bitter properly served from a handpump (at least without the stupid sparkler attachment) or by gravity. That's where the 20 oz. pint glass originated, don't forget, and it remains the template for our nonic pints at least. The same debate occurred in Britain a number of years ago -- calls by CAMRA and others for "oversized, lined" pint glasses -- when the service of cask beer with a significant cap of head became more commonplace due largely to the swan neck and sparkler, making it impossible to get 20 oz of liquid into the glass if it is also necessary to leave room for an inch of foam.
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Postby Belgian » Wed Sep 24, 2014 9:50 pm

^ Shocking if, as you say the 'pint' glassware over many decades didn't evolve to account for the head of beer foam - not getting slightly bigger, and some have even gotten smaller. Crazy unlikely odds! ;)

I'm having some fun here of course, and yes I suppose traditions can 'drift' like your example. A 2x4 of mill-finished spruce timber hasn't been that true size in decades - in this case you can clearly tape-measure that it's a half inch smaller in both width and depth. But when one considers the price of a beer these days it would be nice to know the deal per oz. "Glass fill line, meet tape measure..."
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Tapsucker
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Postby Tapsucker » Thu Sep 25, 2014 12:44 am

Belgian wrote:
groulxsome wrote:I do not believe that “A pint contains 20 fl. oz. (568 ml) in Canada.” I think it generally contains 500 ml plus or minus 25 ml for foam.

Well that's funny because I'd call that a half liter. In Germany the shorthand is commonly "half", "quarter" or "third" for servings 500, 250 and 330ml - nice clear purchasing agreement, fill lines to assure the transaction, no guessing games.

I'd be happy to ban the word pint if we discarded the whole shell-game of Imperial pints, US Pints and all Mystery Pints - and if instead we had Euro-style metric glassware with fill lines. We can even call them half, third and (if ever done) quarter, referring to the fraction of a liter - just handier to yell while ordering in a loud place.


"Bloody typical, they've gone back to metric without telling us."
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Postby icemachine » Thu Sep 25, 2014 9:38 am

Dimensional lumber has shrunk simply because of finishing techniques, namely kiln drying and planing. You can still get true 2x4's if you go to a mill, but you'll get heavy wet wood that will fill your hands with splinters
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Belgian
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Postby Belgian » Thu Sep 25, 2014 10:11 pm

icemachine wrote:Dimensional lumber has shrunk simply because of finishing techniques, namely kiln drying and planing. You can still get true 2x4's if you go to a mill, but you'll get heavy wet wood that will fill your hands with splinters

Like the false pint, finished 2x4s used to be 'true dimension'. Can still get them eg. for restoration work in older homes, it's just not easy to source.
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Tapsucker
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Postby Tapsucker » Fri Sep 26, 2014 6:41 pm

Belgian wrote:
icemachine wrote:Dimensional lumber has shrunk simply because of finishing techniques, namely kiln drying and planing. You can still get true 2x4's if you go to a mill, but you'll get heavy wet wood that will fill your hands with splinters

Like the false pint, finished 2x4s used to be 'true dimension'. Can still get them eg. for restoration work in older homes, it's just not easy to source.


Also, even 'finished' or planed lumber these days is soaking wet. When I was a kid, I worked a summer in a lumber yard. If wet/poorly kilned or twisted lumber was delivered, we sent it back and the mill paid shipping. These days the big box stores accept it, try to sell it and if the crap culled by customers, it just gets dumped. There is no incentive for quality to be on offer. Then again, look at the prices. It's all a race to the bottom, my friends...
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Postby S. St. Jeb » Sun Sep 28, 2014 2:31 pm

darmokandjalad wrote:
skootles wrote:When we went to Duke's Refresher for the ABV event last week, I noticed that their menu listed a "pint" at 10oz.

On the one hand, it's nice that they listed the size, but on the other, 10oz is quite literally a half pint, not a pint.


You should not be able to use the word "pint" if the volume being poured is not a pint as legally defined in this country. Words have definitions, and in the case of units of measurement, those definitions are quite explicit.

The idea of a 10 oz. (or any other sub-20 oz.) pint is asinine. It's like a gas station selling "900 mL litres" of gasoline. You don't get to arbitrarily redefine the value of a unit of measurement. That's not how things work.

Make up another word to describe your 10 oz. pour, because the word 'pint' has already been assigned to a different volume. Hell, just leave the word 'pint' out entirely and just say 10 oz. glass/pour/whatever. Or half-pint, that works too, at least in this case.


Well said. I couldn't agree more.
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ErkLR
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Postby ErkLR » Tue Sep 30, 2014 5:22 pm

This story is about craft brewers wanting to get rid of the shaker glasses, but it makes an interesting point about how the US came to use 16 oz "pint" glasses. I figure by extension, Canadian bars and restaurants just followed suit because those glasses were cheap and easy.
http://www.citylab.com/design/2014/09/s ... ye/380440/

To find a "pint" in pre-war America, you'd generally have to seek out a traditional British pub. Shakers did much to standardize our sense of how much beer should come in a glass.

and
We've done flutelike glasses, German-style mugs, and of course, 12-ounce bottles, but we've never made much of a tradition out of 16 ounces.

Except, that is, for the shaker glass. However misbegotten, it was the American pint.


Funny enough, like most people, the author talks about the volume of the glass as if that's the volume of beer you get in it, ie) she ignores head and the near-impossibility of carrying a totally full glass to a table even if there is no head. I have done much the same in the past.

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