Debate: is Ontario's beer scene really bland?

[saints_gambit]

The Ontario Brewing Scene is good and rapidly improving.

The Ontario Beer Sales scene is a separate issue.

It's unfair to tar the entire thing as us being behind the states. Our governance certainly is.

I keep hearing people say we're ten years behind. Since I started writing about beer, it's been "we're ten years behind." No, we're not. We're ripping off good ideas left, right and center. We're catching up incredibly quickly. We're probably ahead of BC in terms of adventurous brewing.

The problem is the access to market and governance, not the beer.

[zombi69]

Still think Ontario has a far way too go. Especially after experiencing the brews from my past road trip from Santa Rosa,Cali, to Austin Texas as well as Florida. BC is one Canadian market that is leading the way and very close if not on par with many US markets. Just my opinion though.

[Belgian]

I agree it seems that Ontario brewing is playing catch up with the USA but then so is the antiquated regulatory nightmare that makes it so hard to produce and sell quality craft beer.

Mike at Coles/Blue Monk in Buffalo NY is able to turn over the most incredible variety of draught kegs at his bars, and in Ontario the multi-layered expense of doing even a fraction of that tap list at a bar makes the whole effort nearly impossible.

Also, consider the Bellwoods dilemma in expanding their growth. Every logical, natural step to offer us gradually increased production, more tasting and serving bars, improved bottle availability and brewery tours has some stupid gatekeeper regulation standing in front of it saying NO YOU CAN NOT.

I also note an outstanding phenomena of recent years, the wildly successful Bar Hop who adapt to the best of all these constraining circumstances by offering a generous number of special, rare and one-offs from Ontario brewers. They are not fighting the current but encouraging it to gain momentum, regardless of what comes in from outside Ontario.

[Derek]

We're probably ahead of BC in terms of adventurous brewing.

Interesting... I haven't kept up with the Toronto or Vancouver scene to really comment. Both cities have really lept forward in the last couple of years. Maybe the top 2 now? (5 years ago I certainly would have said it was Montreal and victoria).

[atomeyes]

so this kind of goes back to my initial argument. 3 years ago, we barely had Funk Night, Bellwoods didn't exist, Great Lakes would do some very limited one-offs and Amsterdam was just starting their experimental program.

3 years later, we have Amsterdam launching a lacto gose co-brew with GLB. once.
we have Amsterdam selling their raspberry sour at the LCBO. once.
we have no commercially available brett beer at the LCBO other than JP's seasonal release and, every 2 years, Orval.
Amsterdam has nothing revolutionary on its regular beer list other than Tempest. and that's seasonal.
GLB is arguably putting out neat stuff, but most of it are IPAs.

on tap, its mostly the same old shit everywhere.
so we exploded and grew 3 years ago. but not by leaps and bounds.

our bar and LCBO bottle experience is still same-ish.
will it get better? are new players like Duggans (hah), Left Field and Muddy York, to name a few, going to make us better? Or just give us more choices of IPAs and stouts to order?
or do we hope that guys like Lansdowne Brewery (whenever he opens in 2015) will be doing really different-ass stuff that will further push us forward.

[Belgian]

^ all good facts atom, and are you really asking if craft beer will grow here in the same linear fashion we imagine in, say many parts of the USA? I'd guess that's a no *. But supposing it might grow its own way, maybe that has to start with those one-off sours you mentioned, and gradually more regular Orval and Dupont at the LC and more genuinely useful beers being brewed here meanwhile enduring a whole lot of strange expensive sweet beers from this or that Ontario brewery.

* And if the answer is no likely USA-style growth, then maybe the next question is how will Ontario beer grow? If the way it's going now isn't satisfactory, what realistically would be? (Anyone?)

I'd think the growing pressure for the LCBO to meet demand for interesting USA and other brews at the LCBO might continue to encourage local investment in those styles.

[atomeyes]

i always debate whether or not the LCBO would encourage local growth and experimentation or not.
you think that the lack of access to great US beer would result in local breweries trying to brew what they really dig and what people are fawning over down south.
that hasn't really happened yet (well, in large numbers or in a consistent basis).
I mean, do we have a great year-round saison available? nope.

[Craig]

But there are two great saisons on general list at the LCBO, so it's not like making one here would fill a void for consumers. Not to mention that Left Field, NB and I think Black Oak all make a saison year-round now. I think the problem is likely that the LCBO won't carry them as anything other than seasonals, because "people only drink Saison in the summer."

[atomeyes]

then we shouldn't make anything in ontario because better stuff's made elsewhere, right?

[Belgian]

Again, I think it's all changing, albeit slowly and if the slowness is frustrating, OK fair enough but what's your point? How do you see it happening differently, and what 'should' be done, in your view?

[Craig]

then we shouldn't make anything in ontario because better stuff's made elsewhere, right?

You're the one who said they should be making Saisons because we don't have access to good ones, not me. Unless I misunderstood you?

[BakaGaijin]

i always debate whether or not the LCBO would encourage local growth and experimentation or not.
you think that the lack of access to great US beer would result in local breweries trying to brew what they really dig and what people are fawning over down south.
that hasn't really happened yet (well, in large numbers or in a consistent basis).
I mean, do we have a great year-round saison available? nope.

I tend to think that the LCBO has hindered local growth and experimentation.

It cost's hundred's of thousands of dollars to start a brewery. It ain't cheap. The primary goal of every brewery should be to turn a profit. If this is not the primary goal then the brewery will not be in existence very long. This creates a challenge with the current distribution model. If I was going to start a brewery that only made sours and experimental stuff and I couldn't get listed in the LCBO or the Beer Store then I would only be able to sell my product at my retail outlet. Perhaps the current retail model encourages breweries to brew generic stuff that the LCBO tends to list.


I think that maybe Bellwoods has changed the game. They have proven that you can be incredibly successful without any distribution, by making creative beers and selling them on-site.

[Craig]

I think that maybe Bellwoods has changed the game. They have proven that you can be incredibly successful without any distribution, by making creative beers and selling them on-site.

If you're in the heart of the trendiest neighbourhood in Toronto. Although I suppose you could say something similar about Indie, even if I doubt their retail sales/demand are close to what Bellwoods have.

If that sour-focused brewery ever gets going, it will be really interesting to see how they do outside of the city. I can only imagine how many happy vacationers they'll annoy with their strange, sour beer.

[JerCraigs]

I think that maybe Bellwoods has changed the game. They have proven that you can be incredibly successful without any distribution, by making creative beers and selling them on-site.

Also known as the "Granite has been doing it for 20+ years" model? Admittedly not with the kind of revolutionary stuff that people are talking about in this thread but still good stuff.

[Kel Varnsen]

When it comes to Ontario vs. the US I think there are so many factors at play (above and beyond simple supply and demand)that it becomes hard to compare.

I mean the biggest one is the fact that there economy is more than 10 times bigger than Canada's. That alone is huge. I mean walk into any grocery store and look at say the breakfast cereal aisle, and you will see a crazy selection of cereals that never make it to Canada.

Plus their interstate distribution laws are a lot simpler for them. I mean a brewer in michigan isn't really stuck just selling in michigan. If he can get his beer approved for sale in texas, and find a distributor, all he really has to do is wait for the truck from Texas to show up. It is much more difficult for Ontario brewers to even get into Quebec and vise versa.

Not to mention get a sense that good beer in the US is not nearly as popular as it appears. I mean it seems everytime I go to a store with beer, especially in Syracuse/Watertown/Canton/Potsdam there is just a ton of expired product on the shelves. That tells me that things aren't moving as well as one might think. At first I thought it was just a small town thing, but earlier this year we were in Philly and I noticed the same thing both at the Wegmans and at a beer store in the suburbs where we were staying.