Debate: is Ontario's beer scene really bland?

atomeyes · Post by **atomeyes** » Sat Oct 04, 2014 10:10 am

For those people who've traveled outside of Ontario to...well, pretty much anywhere in the US or to BC.

We're experiencing huge growth in Ontario's beer scene, but is it good growth?

You go to 99% of GTA bars and you're getting the same Ontario offerings.
Most new breweries are doing the exact same thing as other breweries (IPAs, lagers, APAs, stouts).

On tap, we have little to no good beer that comes from outside Ontario. go to BarHop and you can get 2 types of Choufe and Rodenbach. that's as exotic as we get. Zero US beer on tap. Zero beer from BC on tap.

bottle-wise, anything you buy at a bar is something you can get at the LCBO for 2/3 the price. so why drink bottles at bars? better yet: why do bars sell bottles?

ignoring events like Funk Night and Cask Days, most of our beer offerings we get 355 days of the year are same old, same olds. are we in the golden age of Ontario's beer scene, or will things get better?

icemachine · Post by **icemachine** » Sat Oct 04, 2014 10:15 am

Considering how much better things have got over the last ten years, I expect it to keep getting better. Unless the bubble is over - If Harper is drinking Craft Beer now the trend must be over

http://www.momandhops.ca/modernization- ... -identity/

Craig · Post by **Craig** » Sat Oct 04, 2014 10:24 am

I think Ontario's brewing scene is getting close to up to snuff. Lots of quality standard stuff and a few guys doing interesting specialty stuff. Even in the US, once you get outside of California that's what most places are like.

Where we still lag badly behind the States is access to outside beer. New York doesn't have a particularly better brewing scene than Ontario, but you can pop into any decent craft bar and get Stone, Lagunitas, Green Flash, etc. on tap. Ditto for any bottle shop anywhere in the US.

So I guess my stance is our beer scene is fine. Not exceptional, but decent. Our problem is we don't really have access to anyone else's beer scene.

boney · Post by **boney** » Sat Oct 04, 2014 11:00 am

I think Craig's answer is spot on. Access to outside beer is poor largely due to the system in Ontario. What is interesting to me is that even in terms of Ontario craft, only the same 10 or so Ontario breweries ever show up on tap, even at the bars with 10-20+ taps, despite well over 100 craft breweries in the province. It's probably an issue with production capacity, ability to distribute etc. but I get the feeling that the future of craft in Ontario will be equal parts exploiting your local breweries that don't distribute widely, as well as seeking out craft hubs like Bar Hop and Volo.

In terms of local diversity and quality, I think Ontario is comparable to most other scenes in the US and Canada. Many breweries have their standard IPA's, Stouts, Pale Lagers, and now saisons, but many also do seasonal one off smoked, sours, kellers, Belgians etc., to the point that you can find any style if you look hard enough.....they just wont be at the LCBO or even on tap. In terms of quality, it's variable, but so is everywhere.

If you go to Vancouver, Montreal, San Diego or X city in Michigan it's easy to walk into a bar and bottle shop and say "wow, this is waaay better than Ontario". And it is in terms of distribution. However, if you get past the initial onslaught of shiny new beers and known "wants" and objectively assess the quality of what's available, you realize how much garbage there is in all of those scenes relative to those 99 percentile gems. For example, I spent a week down San Diego last spring and after drinking Alpine, Lost Abbey and a few others, which only represent 1% of the beer available down there, I tried a lot of other random breweries that were frankly average. It's the same in Ontario. Once you get past the Thrust's and Motley Cru's there's a lot of average bland beer. The percentage of amazing to average beers is pretty much than same everywhere in North America now, only the number of breweries per capita differs, IMO.

atomeyes · Post by **atomeyes** » Sat Oct 04, 2014 11:38 am

i'll use Michigan as an example. of course, i can only talk about draught, since our bottle/LCBO system is beyond fucked.

Michigan's a top state when it comes to beer. so many breweries. you go to Slow's in Detroit and the tap list is mindblowing. like, 30 taps and i'd drink the shit out of half of them. and of the 15, i'd say that half were local.
you go to a toronto restaurant and you'd rarely find me saying "i'd drink the shit out of their draught list!" at best, there are 1-3 beer on tap that i'd be satisfied with having.
not sure if that's a comment on my taste on a comment on Ontario's draught being produced.
our one-offs, compared to Michigan's one-offs, are a few notches lower. you never see our one-offs on tap. in michigan, you get Backwoods Bastard on tap, or other seasonals from Founders. also, our one-offs are made at such a small quantity that you really don't get a chance to drink them frequently and enjoy them.

go to Amsterdam brewhouse and you can never find one-offs on tap. or in bottles.

Great Lakes? it's been an IPAfest for the past year. that's good and not so good, since some people like cellared beer or diversity in purchases.

so saying that we're on par with the US is completely untrue. we're a hell of a lot better than where we were 3 years ago.

Craig · Post by **Craig** » Sat Oct 04, 2014 12:32 pm

In the last year great lakes released 2 barley wines, one of which was excellent. They also did like 100 variations on a nice porter, two pumpkin beers and a variety of one-offs, including a bunch of collabs with various people. All of it but one of the barley wines I had on tap this year.

Craig · Post by **Craig** » Sat Oct 04, 2014 12:36 pm

I also don't agree that our one-offs are a step below the US average. Comparing to Michigan isn't really fair.

boney · Post by **boney** » Sat Oct 04, 2014 12:50 pm

It very well could be a matter or taste. I think Ontario is on par with the US, but I know my range of what makes an average beer is really wide compared to many, with only a very, very small handful being truly excellent or truly horrible. Not saying I'm any more or leas refined than anyone, just that for me 95% of all beer produced is very drinkable, but average.

I think, in my experience, comparing beer scenes is all about comfort level as well. If I go to Bar Hop, I've had 90% of what is on tap before and I know that I think 95% of them are good but average. I'll try the new offering on tap, but I know the brewery that produced it, so I'll know what to expect. If I'm down in Michigan or California, 95% of what's down there is probably new to me, in terms of drinking, even though I'm probably familiar with the brewery through ratings sites. I get down there and go " yeah, I can drink the hell out of that tap list" simply because most of it is new to me. Once I start sampling though, I think "yup, very drinkable, but nothing special" 95 times out of a hundred. No one has to agree with me though. Maybe you do find the quality in the US markedly higher on average, but tasting is subjective. There really is no objective answer to the question, only personal experience and preferences.

Belgian · Post by **Belgian** » Sat Oct 04, 2014 1:32 pm

I think we've gotten well past the (whiny?) fears of 'well if we brew THAT, nobody will drink it.'

In 2004 it seemed there was maybe one real Ontario IPA barely available, virtually no IPA imports and a bunch of really identical pale lager/cream ale breweries who believed they had to stick to that. Then Muskoka Mad Tom IPA and Spearhead Hawaiian APA obliterated this idea.

I'm thankful they were wrong. We've gotten past the critical point of resistance, and talented brewers can express their best work and be rewarded for it.

Who knew that in 2014 Ontario you could find more good Berliner Weisse than I ever saw in Berlin.

I think Ontario's still filling the substantial void, but it's happening because people now see the opportunity; if massively successful USA craft brewers can set the bar, we can at least follow.

TheSevenDuffs · Post by **TheSevenDuffs** » Sat Oct 04, 2014 2:07 pm

Ontario has made significant strides in the past 2-3 years, even more so in the past 12-18 months. That being said, we are still a ways behind most US markets. This applies not only to available bottle selection at the retail level (which is WAY behind most US states) but also to the quality of available draft beer at local beer bars and restaurants.

The retail issue is one that has also vastly improved in recent years, but it is disheartening to visit a state like Hawaii and note that they are miles ahead of us in this regard.

In terms of draft selection, we need to continue growth in two areas for this to improve. The first being that we need more breweries like Bellwoods and Beyond The Pale as opposed to many Ontario breweries that are focused on profit first and creativity second. And secondly, we need more great beer bars to open and more current bars and restaurants to incorporate craft in to their taps. I am always amazed in my travels to the US how many bars (just regular bars, not craft bars per say) have decent craft options available. This is something that is rare in Ontario.

JerCraigs · Post by **JerCraigs** » Sat Oct 04, 2014 2:16 pm

atomeyes wrote: our one-offs, compared to Michigan's one-offs, are a few notches lower. you never see our one-offs on tap. in michigan, you get Backwoods Bastard on tap, or other seasonals from Founders. also, our one-offs are made at such a small quantity that you really don't get a chance to drink them frequently and enjoy them.

I disagree, and comparing Michigan to Ontario is silly. I can't be bothered to look up the stats but I'm pretty sure Bells and Founders are significantly larger than any of the Ontario breweries. I think the point that it can be difficult to find some of the best Ontario stuff is fair, but a counter example is the move by Great Lakes to start doing the Tank Ten series on a larger scale. Amsterdam is also starting to do larger batches of their Adventure Brews, Bellwoods is building a whole other building, etc.

The diversity/out of province availability problem is structural. If you look at any single states domestic production I don't think Ontario is that far behind most of them. The catch is that most states have their own as well as the best beers from their neighboring states as well. Meanwhile we get maybe 10% of the best stuff from Quebec.

Are we behind some of the states overall? Probably yeah. But I would argue that given the legislative disadvantages and the rate of change in Ontario we were getting better pretty damn fast.

sprague11 · Post by **sprague11** » Sat Oct 04, 2014 2:41 pm

Short answer: Better than we have been, still not quite where we could be.

PeenSteen · Post by **PeenSteen** » Sat Oct 04, 2014 3:05 pm

sprague11 wrote:Short answer: Better than we have been, still not quite where we could be.

This is the right answer

sprague11 · Post by **sprague11** » Sat Oct 04, 2014 4:52 pm

I think this is the same arguement that we have been having for the past 5 years. The additions of Bellwoods and BTP to Ontario in the past couple years seem to amplify the "me too" attitude of many (though not all) of our other brewers when it comes to what's being brewed here. They see what everybody else is brewing then do the same.

The term "Not bad....for Ontario" exists in the beer lexicon for a reason. I've heard it in NYC, Michigan, Vermont, Boston, Indiana, Quebec, BC, and yes, even in Ontario!

cratez · Post by **cratez** » Sat Oct 04, 2014 5:01 pm

I agree with everything atomeyes, Belgian, and TheSevenDuffs have pointed out, BUT also believe that our beer scene is constantly improving and that the best beers/breweries/bars are yet to come. And that's why sprague's quote nicely sums up my current outlook:

sprague11 wrote: Better than we have been, still not quite where we could be.

It's also worth remembering that the U.S. craft beer revolution started well before our scene took off; that most American crafters operate within a much more liberally regulated alcohol and retail system and an economy that is - IMO, anyway - more innovative, dynamic, and entrepreneurial than ours; that some of the pioneering brewers like Anchor, New Albion, and Sierra Nevada were able to sell to and expand in a market that is roughly 66% larger than Ontario's; that comparing our biggest province to a country of 316 million is basically an apples-to-oranges comparison; and that all of these things taken together matter quite a bit when we're trying to figure out why there's still a significant discrepancy b/w Ontario's beer scene and a lot of the U.S. This isn't to apologize for the current state of things here, but merely to point out that there's many factors behind the "gap" b/w here and down south.