General LCBO Debate & Discussion Thread

[sprague11]

I'm all for canning the 16 people in the Social Responsibility department however. I cannot stress this enough.

Barrel-aged Nun-raping Hop Fucker for Fine Gentlemen here we come!

[midlife crisis]

This is just it. When asked why he'd sell off a company that pulls in 2 billion dollars, he just says he's opposed to government running businesses. He'd sacrifice it on the basis of pure ideology.

That's a bit unfair. The question "should government be in the business of retailing beer and wine to the exclusion of private vendors?" is an ideological one, whether you think the answer is yes or no.

[JeffPorter]

Sure. And I would agree that holding onto a crown corporation even when it doesn't make money is also ideological, and not based good fiscal policy.

But Hudak's argument isn't: "the LCBO is dragging us down, and it's not profitable for the province to run it any more", but rather, "I don't think it's the government's business to run businesses." That's based on an idea, rather than financial policy.

I'm an unabashed NDP member, but I'm quite open to opening up competition. Clearly, the model we've had since 1927 is a out of date, but I'm not sure about selling the whole thing off.

He seems to think, though, that we won't lose any revenue from it, that we'll make up for it in taxes and not having to pay employees. It's possible, and I'm not great with numbers, but it doesn't sound convincing.

Also important to note that he seemed to soften his message later in the day, saying that he'd like to explore a range of options from selling part of it, to simply opening up competition.

[JeffPorter]

Article from the Star:

Yeah, it's by someone from the CCPA, so kind of biased, and this a little too much "social responsibility" stuff in the second half, but the first part makes some interesting points.

http://www.thestar.com/opinion/editoria ... lyzer-test

[Kel Varnsen]

The news report I heard this morning is that he actually wants beer, wine and hard alcohol to be sold in corner stores and grocery stores. Except I totally get the feeling that if they start selling Vodka at 7-11 people are going to freak out.

[JeffPorter]

Except I totally get the feeling that if they start selling Vodka at 7-11 people are going to freak out.

Yeah, and "social responsibility" in and of itself doesn't have to be a bad thing. There's a difference between thinking a skull bottle is too offensive or explosive beer packaging, and making sure 13 year olds or drunk guys in cars don't buy booze.

[andrewrg]

That Star article lost me at "We get...wider variety."

[Cale]

Except I totally get the feeling that if they start selling Vodka at 7-11 people are going to freak out.

Yeah, and "social responsibility" in and of itself doesn't have to be a bad thing. There's a difference between thinking a skull bottle is too offensive or explosive beer packaging, and making sure 13 year olds or drunk guys in cars don't buy booze.

I find it WAY easier to buy booze in Ontario than, for instance, Buffalo. The only time I get carded at the LCBO is when there's a new employee or hovering manager. I don't think I've ever bought beer in Buffalo and not been carded (sometimes multiple pieces of ID) - including at bars, which I don't think has ever happened to me in Ontario. Our system ≠ social responsibility.

[saints_gambit]

The whole thing is a snare and a delusion.

The companies that own The Beer Store are the only ones with the money and will to make this happen and in order to do that, they would be giving up a state sponsored virtual monopoly.

What really needs to happen is that someone should consolidate all of the information on the topic into one place so that the next time this topic comes up, in six months, we can all just link to it and then get on with our lives.

[Kel Varnsen]

The companies that own The Beer Store are the only ones with the money and will to make this happen and in order to do that, they would be giving up a state sponsored virtual monopoly.

I would love to be a fly on a wall and here the Beer Store owners take on this. I mean on the one hand it is nice to have the government monopoly that you run. But on the other hand, selling their products through the beer store means that there are only 400 or so stores in Ontario that sell most of their products. And they have to own those stores and pay for thing like maintenance and employees. If beer was sold in grocery stores people could get their coors light in 1000's of stores, and it would be someone else paying for things like employees and that sort of thing.

[mintjellie]

Except I totally get the feeling that if they start selling Vodka at 7-11 people are going to freak out.

Yeah, and "social responsibility" in and of itself doesn't have to be a bad thing. There's a difference between thinking a skull bottle is too offensive or explosive beer packaging, and making sure 13 year olds or drunk guys in cars don't buy booze.

I find it WAY easier to buy booze in Ontario than, for instance, Buffalo. The only time I get carded at the LCBO is when there's a new employee or hovering manager. I don't think I've ever bought beer in Buffalo and not been carded (sometimes multiple pieces of ID) - including at bars, which I don't think has ever happened to me in Ontario. Our system ≠ social responsibility.

I once tried buying cigarettes at a gas station in Syracuse. They refused to sell to me because every age controlled productsold had to be accompanied by a swipe of the magnetic stripe on the purchasers ID card. They couldn't swipe my Canadian ID, so they refused me service. I asked the cashier if they would ID an 80 year old man, and he said they ID everyone regardless of how old they look.

I wish I could remember the name of the gas bar - it was part of a chain, and apparently this is a chain-wide policy.

[saints_gambit]

The companies that own The Beer Store are the only ones with the money and will to make this happen and in order to do that, they would be giving up a state sponsored virtual monopoly.

I would love to be a fly on a wall and here the Beer Store owners take on this. I mean on the one hand it is nice to have the government monopoly that you run. But on the other hand, selling their products through the beer store means that there are only 400 or so stores in Ontario that sell most of their products. And they have to own those stores and pay for thing like maintenance and employees. If beer was sold in grocery stores people could get their coors light in 1000's of stores, and it would be someone else paying for things like employees and that sort of thing.

You're not wrong that there might be advantages. The question is ultimately whether it would be worthwhile for them to attempt to enact those changes and take advantage of wider distribution at the cost of surrendering a monopoly. Given that The Beer Store has existed for 85 years and shows no sign of ceasing to exist, we also have the answer to that question.

[Belgian]

It's milking the cow at a loss rather than innovating for more profits which the LC doesn't really care about.

I'm not sure how they operate at a loss when net income was 1.56 billion in 2010, and has been increasing steadily for 17 years. Unless there's something I'm not getting.

I mean they don't care about making MORE money than they already do by being far more efficient and consumer-oriented. They ARE wasteful and discard the opportunity to make still-greater profits which would fund the province. This is because they can afford to, and there's no competiton.

'Milking the Cow' is entirely accurate & the stategy of weak 'play it safe' business that resists innovation.

[spinrsx]

anyone know?

If I ask my local LCBO to start carrying certain beers, any chance they will? Who picks what's on the shelves? The manger? Do they listen to suggestions?

[sprague11]

anyone know?

If I ask my local LCBO to start carrying certain beers, any chance they will? Who picks what's on the shelves? The manger? Do they listen to suggestions?

50/50 chance I would imagine - or at least they would transfer stock around. my brother got amny things transferred to Sault Ste Marie LCBO's when he lived there.