Price of a Pint

Belgian · Post by **Belgian** » Sun Sep 18, 2005 2:50 pm

I somewhat agree JC.... it's just expensive to go out in this city, unless you can happily languish on the fringes (Only Cafe, Castro's Lounge - the bottles can be easily a FEW BUCKS cheaper than downtown, putting less of a crimp on how many rounds you will or can buy.)

But you aren't going to be in the same crowd as downtown are you? Yonge Street area just 'has' it. And there can be several thousand dollars rent and other costs to cover.

And no-one even mentions inflation, lots of (stable) prices of goods in general have effectively 'dropped' in real terms. Your old pint-buying dollar HAS gotten smaller with inflation, however you may be spending less on steadily-priced stuff like clothes. So your buying power at the taps hasn't changed that much, while you may be saving a little more on other things.

When I go to Volo Or BBistro I will say okay, that's a 9-12 dollar beer that in retail costs a third or a quarter that... justifiable, to be on a nice patio with downtown people. But you will never see me tip $2 on one beer if I'm dining. That's the 'wine bottle rule.' People mistakenly act as if they must tip $6 for the cork pull on a $40 bottle of plain old Masi Valpolicella (and perhaps even tip on the the TAX if they're really stupid.) That's just not affordable or practical. Every civilization with a great, living food culture of dining out fairly often does NOT strangle itself with 'iffy' surcharges, but instead eases off the financial strain enough to be enjoyed habitially and joyously by relaxed, happy people.

I think that's what I'm saying - we should go out more but without blowing the budget stupidly - to say it another way it shouldn't be so prohibitively costly, and at the same time we should value good places and relax when our money's being well-spent, all considered. In budgeting, I like to earmark some money for good experiences, period, because I think that's part of living. The Volo certainly seems to respect the customer's quality of experience fully, and is thus deservedly popular. (They even left my empty Trappist bottle on the table for me to stare at, in proper form.)

Jon Walker · Post by **Jon Walker** » Sun Sep 18, 2005 3:41 pm

The bottom line with this age old debate (check all the previous threads discussing the price of beer) is...beer costs what the market will bear. Don't like the price, don't frequent the establishment. As SB pointed out there's a precarious balance between operating costs and income that justify higher prices in certain places. Others are just gouging a clientelle that are either too naive or too desperate to be cool. In the end it's caveat emptor. But if budget is the ultimate concern then people should brew their own beer and drink it at home...cheapest option going.

As to the other point...where did this "wine bottle rule" come from? I'm guessing that you have never worked in the service industry? Tips are supposed to be derived from service as a percentage of the bill (pre tax). If you start making distinctions about whether $40 of your $140 is wine rather than food then you're telling the server that the service as a whole was unworthy of a decent tip. Most waiters have to "tip out" at the end of the night to bussers, the kitchen, hostesses etc...that tip out is a percentage based on the gross figure of their sales. If you ordered the $40 steak you'd tip on that wouldn't you? Same labor involved in carrying the plate to your table as in bringing you the wine and uncorking the bottle...

This isn't Europe. Tipping in restaurants according to the North American guide to Etiquette is; "At a restaurant: Offer up 15% to 20% of your total bill. Keep in mind that the amount you tip reflects the total price before any coupons, gift certificates, etc. Just because you get a discount, does not mean that your server did not serve up the full order. If you are part of a party of more than 8 people, you should offer an amount closer to the 20% marker, if not more, depending on the needs of the guests in your party. If, for example, one of your guests insists on getting the salad dressing on the side, extra bread, more water and no avocado, then you definitely want to compensate the server who extended service to include these extras."

For further clarity read this;
http://www.tablewine.com/discus/message ... ?961855421

If the service is good the tip should be too. Not tipping on wine, regardless of quality service, is just cheap.

Philip1 · Post by **Philip1** » Mon Sep 19, 2005 12:22 pm

It's not just in high-rent areas like Toronto that it's expensive. The last time I bought a pint of Guinness it was almost $7 and that was 50 miles from Toronto in a fairly small town.

Are licence fees and insurance for bars a lot higher in Ontario than in Europe? I ask because although someone else pointed to the high taxes I find it hard to believe there is less tax to pay in Europe. I found that the difference between the price of a beer in Holland, Belgium, and Ireland in a pub and a "beer store" wasn't as great as here. It's strange because virtually everything I can think of is cheaper in Canada than in Europe <i>except</i> a night out at a bar which is considerably more costly here. In Amsterdam (surely a high rent city like Toronto) a couple of pints can be bought for well less than €10 and half pints are <i>much</i> cheaper than Ontario where they are ridiculously close to the same price as a full pint. (That btw discourages experimentation with different beers.)

I suppose tips are another reason for the high price of going out here. If the customers could just be allowed to go to the bar themselves every time they wanted a drink you could eliminate the wait staff. That would also be better for the customer - wouldn't have to wait for your server; or for that matter be rushed into your next pint before you're ready; or feel like you're nailed to your seat all night.

In Europe at least 90% of the money I spent on beer was in bars. Here it's limited to the occasional (once every other month or so) trip to Toronto and visits to Volo, Beer Bistro, Smokeless Joe's. I don't mind paying a bit more for the beers I get at those establishments but unlike in Europe I wouldn't even consider dropping into a local bar for a quick pint as it's just too expensive.

lister · Post by **lister** » Mon Sep 19, 2005 2:07 pm

I actually agree with Jon on this.

When I'm out I like to be waited on. I do enough self serve for just about everything else but not when I'm paying a pretty penny when I'm out for food and/or drinks. I frequently tip more than 15% when two things occur: the server is friendly but not too friendly and is attentive but not overbearing. A server with a great sense of timing gets rewarded handsomely.

Two things I absolutely detest are paying for drinks every round and going up to the bar to get them. GAH! That happened on Saturday night. After a yummy dinner at One of A Kind Pasta, we strolled over to The Paddock where I haven't visited for 3 years. They've got a decent tap selection and mix some nice drinks. Nice low key ambiance, visually and musically. Older crowd which is my preference. Good barkeep, friendly and attentive which I value highly. Good tip for him. We paid for everything when we left. Coolness.

Next up was Gorilla Monsoons. I read a blurb about it several weeks ago in the Metro. Sounded interesting. Wrong-o! It's a young crowd, my age (early 30s) and younger, was understaffed, and we got shoved the bill after our drinks were dropped off. Needless to say that after downing the mart, er, cocktails

(which were mediocre at best) we left for home. Not going there again.

Belgian · Post by **Belgian** » Mon Sep 19, 2005 2:45 pm

Jon Walker wrote:As to the other point...where did this "wine bottle rule" come from?....

This isn't Europe..

(2 excerpts.)

It's an interesting point, and I don't mean to discourage appropriate tipping. If you love the meal, sure, tip well. Not everyone tips fully on alcohol with a meal though, fact.

The "wine bottle rule" isn't universal (most Canadians like myself tend to just roll over and pay 15%.) But we all know the pricing is screwed because restaurants get burned paying retail cost. It adds up to crazy menu prices.

So I do have sympathy for the restaurant's alcohol costs, even if they charge those costs back multiple times over. It's hard to say, should one buy pricey booze and tip a smaller percentage, or just spend less - the latter is not good for the restaurant. A few places (eg. Terroni) solve this dilemma by offering nice varieties of wine (not plonk) by the glass at very friendly prices. There's a bit of Europe for you JW.

I usually tip over 15% on everything anyway because the servers depend on it to live, owing to their low pay (that's another debate why employers can do this.) I was just making the point that when dining out, if certain markups are obviously extravagant, tipping guidelines can get a bit softer. That variability certainly applies to bad food and service. It's not as automatic as people might assume and should rightly be subject to how one is treated - it's not the law or anything. Obviously, some places deserve a good big cash tip though.

And yes, it's not Europe here, Jon so you correctly surmise that my view is a bit 'out of place' with Toronto. But I like to keep a bit of Europe in my head, it keeps me sane!

Belgian · Post by **Belgian** » Mon Sep 19, 2005 6:43 pm

Jon Walker wrote:"If, for example, one of your guests insists on getting the salad dressing on the side, extra bread, more water and no avocado, then you definitely want to compensate the server who extended service to include these extras.".

Any extra effort or running around should be extra tips, yes.

baiser · Post by **baiser** » Fri Sep 23, 2005 1:55 am

Greg, you should account for the fact that Americans serve 16 oz pints as opposed to our 20 ozers. With that said, I agree with you that good local craft brew is still much much cheaper in the states. I'm living in the bay area this year and I frequent the Toronado in SF and they have 50 taps and a few casks for $3-4 a pint, and a dollar off during happy hours. Needless to say, I'm a happy man.

Although, I do miss the size of Canadian pints

GregClow wrote:I just got back from San Diego, where pints at the place I went cost around $4 normally, although during Happy Hour and cheap beer nights, they are as low as $2. And that's for amazing local beers like Stone, Alesmith, etc. Luckily, my trip co-incided with the cheap pint nights at a couple of great beer bars. It was a pretty nice trip...

the.brewer · Post by **the.brewer** » Fri Sep 23, 2005 8:27 am

It's funny really that the size of a serving of beer is about the only thing in the US that's not bigger than in the rest of the world. Can anyone think of any other exceptions? No references to anatomy allowed.

antirealist · Post by **antirealist** » Fri Sep 23, 2005 10:50 am

Taxes?

Colin @ Canada · Post by **Colin @ Canada** » Sat Sep 24, 2005 1:04 pm

When I was in France I could buy a huge block of fine french cheese and a four foot long fresh french baguette for a couple bucks. I guess some things are much cheaper in different countries. For those who don't work in the industry you have no idea how much it costs to opperate a business in hospitality. It's also not a good idea to whine about prices too much because bar owners will opt out for cheaper beers like Lakeport and steelback instead of trying premium microbreweries . Bar owners need to have some money left over at the end of the day or its just not worth it.

Belgian · Post by **Belgian** » Mon Sep 26, 2005 11:48 am

Academy_Colin wrote:When I was in France I could buy a huge block of fine french cheese and a four foot long fresh french baguette for a couple bucks. I guess some things are much cheaper in different countries. For those who don't work in the industry you have no idea how much it costs to opperate a business in hospitality. It's also not a good idea to whine about prices too much because bar owners will opt out for cheaper beers like Lakeport and steelback instead of trying premium microbreweries . Bar owners need to have some money left over at the end of the day or its just not worth it.

Talk to Ottawa. You have an excellent case - if they don't ease off on tax expenses, how can you compete while offering quality to an ever more-discerning beer and wine crowd? There are LOTS of ways for people to spend their entertainment dollar, and you deserve a fair crack at the game. Tell Ottawa with that it's ridiculous for them not to adapt to the natural process of cultural sophistication in our province. This process is happening is it not? Can we really live in the dino-age of the old tax structure?

BTW I too remember France's cheese and bread - if I spent $20 on an inedible 'steak' dinner, no worry, I could cross the street and with a 35 cent Baguette, some wine and a hunk of cheese find absolute perfection. Thanks for mentioning that, what a memory.

PRMason · Post by **PRMason** » Mon Sep 26, 2005 4:06 pm

I was there (Paris) a year ago this month and found the prices to be really steep. I have been there several times, but this time it really shocked me. In any café in the city, you get a Croque Monsieur ( basically a grilled cheese with ham) a tiny bit of salad and a 25cl "biere de café" (usually Kronenbourg) and it will set you back at least the equivalent of $20.00. I agree that you can do much better going to the Monoprix and getting some cheese, a decent bottle of red and a baguette at a fine boulangerie, but the same can be said about Ontario (well, except for the price of the wine). The bar prices are outrageous.

Derek · Post by **Derek** » Mon Sep 26, 2005 8:15 pm

I went to a crappy club in London (Ontario)... nothing good... so I ordered Alexander Keiths in a bottle & had a $5 bill ready...

She said it was $5.50 because Keiths was "PREMIUM"!

As for the tipping, I find the 15% rule a little rediculous as well. A waitress that serves you a $20 meal often does the same amount of work as someone that serves you a $50 meal. One gets $3, the other gets $7.50? And the person at the cheaper restaurant is often working harder!

What's more, a $50 meal isn't even that outrageous!

Rob Creighton · Post by **Rob Creighton** » Mon Sep 26, 2005 10:42 pm

Responsible Drinker wrote:I went to a crappy club in London (Ontario)... nothing good... so I ordered Alexander Keiths in a bottle & had a $5 bill ready...She said it was $5.50 because Keiths was "PREMIUM"!

Keiths is the production equivelant of Coors Light. Check the colour and hopping profile. If you're a big fan, you're an idiot...congratulations. And on we go...I know, I'm not subtle...

Jon Walker · Post by **Jon Walker** » Tue Sep 27, 2005 12:07 am

Responsible Drinker wrote:
As for the tipping, I find the 15% rule a little rediculous as well. A waitress that serves you a $20 meal often does the same amount of work as someone that serves you a $50 meal. One gets $3, the other gets $7.50? And the person at the cheaper restaurant is often working harder!

What's more, a $50 meal isn't even that outrageous!

That's such a weak arguement...I'm guessing any excuse will do for some people in order to "short" the tip. 15% isn't a rule, it's a guideline. If you get crappy service don't tip that much or ANYTHING if you want to make a point. Excellent service deserves MORE than 15%. As for your comparison...huh? Restaurants in higher price brackets generally (not always) set a higher standard for service and generally (not always) have better trained and more attentive waiters than their low priced cousins. You are also tipping the waiter partly based on the quality of the service in general (hostess, kitchen staff, somelier etc...are often tipped out of the waiter's earnings). I can guarantee you the staff at Susur would be offended to have the quality of their service equated to that of a Swiss Chalet...and rightly so.