Ontario & IPA's

A · Post by A » Fri Mar 10, 2006 3:38 pm

Y'know, the more I read that reply the more it bothers me.

Do you think Three Floyds does "heavy research" before trying one of thier new recipes? The only research they do is to make it and see how well it sells.

Same thing with Brewpubs around here. Toronto could support *good* brewpubs, but instead we have lame, generic ones and then wonder why they dont take off. No offense but the Granite hasnt changed thier beers since I was born! Try something new, dammit!

What about that ontario craft brewers association that formed? I havent heard anything from them since last summer. Wasnt the whole point to drum up excitement about ontario microbrews?

A · Post by A » Fri Mar 10, 2006 3:46 pm

Here's an example. Dennison's Weissbeer is *WORLD CLASS*. We all know it. Everyone I know (beer fan, non beer fan, man, woman and child(!)) who has tried it loves it.

So why the heck isnt it marketed to high heavens? You cant find it anywhere, its not in bottles even after god knows how many years, you dont see advertising for it. Nothing!

Maybe this is they way Michael wants it to be, and that is his right. But if a US brewery had that beer, I *guarantee* they would be selling huge huge volumes of it at every corner store.

lister · Post by **lister** » Fri Mar 10, 2006 3:48 pm

A wrote:No offense but the Granite hasnt changed thier beers since I was born! Try something new, dammit!

The Gin Lane ale (barley wine) is/was new since their 2005 Octoberfest.

Jon Walker · Post by **Jon Walker** » Fri Mar 10, 2006 6:12 pm

A wrote:Jon, I think all of those reasons are cop-outs, quite frankly. Your average US consumer is no more or less enthustiastic than we are up here. Its a niche market in both cases.

The difference is all in the US entrepreneurial spirit of business, as opposed to the canadian play-it-safe attitude.

Sorry for the stereotyping, but its true. Its up to breweries up here to *build* the market by making good product, finding ways to sell it, and taking chances to differentiate themselves.

You're entitled to your opinion...but frankly it simplistic to chalk the problem up to a lack of Canadian "entrepreneurial spirit". Ask any of the brewers who post here if that has anything to do with the reasons they haven't yet launched more extreme styles of beers. Back before I took the time to really ask brewers on both sides of the border about this very subject I shared your feelings that the Canadian breweries needed to get off their asses and take bigger risks (view many of my early threads back to 2001). It just isn't born out by a successful business model considering the current parameters I laid out. Even Mill Street had to make their business work by releasing a lager before they started making even a pale ale and porter...everything daring they've done since has only been seasonal. There's no arguement that they gambled with their Barley Wine (nobody else in Ontario was doing one for retail) and it was a commercial failure...That example is a pretty good clue that, in this case, innovation didn't CREATE a market.

A · Post by A » Fri Mar 10, 2006 6:32 pm

Define 'failure' - as far as I know they sold the entire amount of barleywine this year (at $5 a bottle - a very high price!) and plan to do it again next year.

I specifally applaud Mill Street for offerings like this. In the case of the Barleywine, I cant imagine what the expectation might be - it again was barely advertised. Why not get a couple of casks of it out to the bars, for example?

detritus · Post by **detritus** » Fri Mar 10, 2006 7:28 pm

If by 'failure', you're referring to the ~600 gift sets still sitting at the LCBO - chalk that up to bad marketing and distribution, NOT lack of interest. I.e.: I would have bought lots of bottles from the LCBO at $5/ea, but not at $10/ea including a glass, compounded by all the gift sets apparently being stuck at a single LCBO.

Belgian · Post by **Belgian** » Fri Mar 10, 2006 7:46 pm

detritus wrote:If by 'failure', you're referring to the ~600 gift sets still sitting at the LCBO....

I think it was a tad optimistic for Mill Street to offer that BW for 10.95, fancy tube or not.

I did grab 4 'naked' bottles from the brewery for 5 bucks each. THAT is an offering I will commit to.

Belgian · Post by **Belgian** » Fri Mar 10, 2006 7:51 pm

A wrote:Here's an example. Dennison's Weissbeer is *WORLD CLASS* // ts not in bottles //

re: "DENISONS WEISSE"

He won't bottle it till he knows it's 'right' in a bottle.

And bottling is hella expensive compared to Draught sales.

And maybe it wouldn't even be as good, so Michael IS for the time being honoring the laudable Bavarian traditon of local beer & minimal handling.

And you can get it at C'est, Volo, Castros, BeerBistro, and a few more so I can't really complain.

>> Why bottle a melted ray of heavenly sunshine? <<

Jon Walker · Post by **Jon Walker** » Fri Mar 10, 2006 7:51 pm

A, you're finding fault with the smallest aspect of the larger point. Mill Street barley wine (a seasonal, small batch release) failed to create a new or expanded market for that particular product. The sales of six packs were to people like us and folks in the bar, restaurant and brewing trade. Where was the growth of new customers by brewing an "innovative" product? Question the price of the gift packs all you want...the market didn't shift just because they made a new product. This market only "shifts" when you offer 24 bland lagers for 24 Dollars...THAT has made companies like Lakeport all kinds of new customers. Welcome to Ontario.

Like it or not innovation (large scale bottling and retailing of a niche style beer) ain't gonna shift this market by itself. The only way to do it without crashing a local micro brewery in the process is to do it slowly, safely and in limited quantites. One day the market will catch up.

Belgian · Post by **Belgian** » Fri Mar 10, 2006 7:57 pm

If I dare interject, the Mill Street Barleywine appears to be a labour of love - ie. small quantity of an esoteric product, bought by only those who 'get' its appeal.

Impressive gesture from the folks at Mill Street, really.

Jon Walker · Post by **Jon Walker** » Fri Mar 10, 2006 8:02 pm

Belgian wrote:If I dare interject, the Mill Street Barleywine appears to be a labour of love - ie. small quantity of an esoteric product, bought by only those who 'get' its appeal.

Impressive gesture from the folks at Mill Streel, really.

Exactly...a gesture. That's all anybody can expect from a microbrewery in this market.

A · Post by A » Fri Mar 10, 2006 8:05 pm

Jon, if you expect *one* offering of *one* product to change the world, your expectations are way too high. I mean really - I dont think anyone expected a barleywine to be the second coming.

What we need to see is a committment to continue trying these small, interesting beers on an ongoing basis, as well as an attempt to *evangelize* them to the general market. This is what is usually referred to as "advertising".

Belgian, not to take anything away from Mill Street because they are quite simply the best brewery in Ontario today, but a single 'barleywine' is, in some sense, the very *least* a quality brewery could do. Imagine a US brewery with Mill Sts line up. Would they be considered impressive for 'daring' to offer a <gasp> barleywine?

A · Post by A » Fri Mar 10, 2006 8:08 pm

Jon Walker wrote:
Belgian wrote:If I dare interject, the Mill Street Barleywine appears to be a labour of love - ie. small quantity of an esoteric product, bought by only those who 'get' its appeal.

Impressive gesture from the folks at Mill Streel, really.
Exactly...a gesture. That's all anybody can expect from a microbrewery in this market. Hell, I could open a brewery tomorrow that sold three beers (well made ones I might add); An IPA over 60 IBU's, a hefty stout and a Malty as hell Scotch Ale. You'd love it, I'd love it....several hundred people might love it...and I'd be out of business in less than 6 months.

Yes, but I daresay you could open a microbrewery that offered an *quality* mass-market pilsner, a *quality* mass-market (maybe even slightly hoppy!) ale, and a rotating list of 4-6 bold, impressive, seasonal ales, and be successful.

Jon Walker · Post by **Jon Walker** » Fri Mar 10, 2006 8:14 pm

A wrote:
Yes, but I daresay you could open a microbrewery that offered an *quality* mass-market pilsner, a *quality* mass-market (maybe even slightly hoppy!) ale, and a rotating list of 4-6 bold, impressive, seasonal ales, and be successful.

My last post on the matter as you seem to be missing my original points why this isn't really feasible here. Talk to guys who run the business of a micro brewery (not the guys who make the beer). This market isn't the U.S. , the business model used by Three Floyds, Rogue or Victory doesn't apply in Ontario. Without a tied house, deregulation and tax cuts(or tax incentives) a brewery just can't make "4-6 bold, impressive, seasonal ales" and actually BE successful here. If you think it can then pony up the money and start up your own. You're gonna have a hell of a time convincing investors to jump on board let alone customers.

Belgian · Post by **Belgian** » Fri Mar 10, 2006 8:41 pm

A wrote:
/////

Imagine a US brewery with Mill Sts line up. Would they be considered impressive for 'daring' to offer a <gasp> barleywine?

No but compare apples. There's TEN times more American people, they're all much closer together, and America doesn't have such a regulatory broomstick up the rear either. So, more support and less resistance.

Not that I claim any omniscience here, but Canada should be WAY looser to achieve any visionary development. For everyone's sake, let guys like Perry make an amazing RI Stout without clobbering him with stupid over-reactive taxes and pedantically finger-waving regulations.

This stuffy country is way too stopped up with prohibition-era bureaucracy, and it's time it took a nice big crap.