Robert Simpson becomes.. Flying Monkeys?

[The_Jester]

Hi Tupalev -

You really made me think. So here, in all of its ragged glory, is my rebuttal to your rebuttal. I apologize if I've misinterpreted anything you wrote.

...if you’re going to try and revive something, be bold, not safe....

Do you understand what you're asking others to do with their money here? You make it sound as though it's no big deal. You say it yourself:

...I am just trying to articulate what rattles around in the heads of a few "good beer" drinkers in this Province....

Don't you think it's a scary proposition for a microbrewer to try to make a living selling "bold" beers to "a few" beer drinkers.

...But Mr. Jester, come on!

MR. Jester?! That's my father! Just call me Jester. Or Andy.

...How many Ontario breweries offer regularly available ... Stouts, Porters, American Style Pale ales, American Style India Pale Ales? Or even Belgian and German Style beers? ... These are not exotic, these are basics.

...Ask yourself why you are going into (any) business...

Sadly, I don't think that they are basic to the average Ontarian beer drinker. I wish they were. (The only thing that's basic in Ontario is pale lager). At the risk of sounding cynical, I believe that money is what makes our world go 'round. And I have to think that Ontario Brewers believe that what they're doing is the best way for them to make money. If they truly believed that there was money to be made by selling more stouts and German style beers, wouldn't they be doing it?

...Bring me some great beer which I’ll happily pay a good portion of my rapidly shrinking disposable income for it and I’ll do my best to put your kids through college. More importantly, I’ll be very loyal”.

So would I. Everyone who contributes here would agree with this. But are there enough others out there who do? Enough to get more brewers to say, "Hey. There's money to be made here..." ?

...As a consumer, I am extremely frustrated about this wait and see attitude that you have expressed Jester. Nothing is going change if we do not keep demanding it...

I really, really do hate my attitude on this subject. And you're right, we do have to "keep demanding" change. If we settle, things will never change. And I think that any change, such as what is going on at RS/FM needs to be encouraged. But I wish that I could believe that there is some way for this to all change overnight; that there is some brewer out there willing to grab Ontario beer drinkers by their collective balls and drag them into the present. But I just can't see it. And I wish I had a solution to offer, but I don't. I think that it involves changing or educating the marketplace and the consumers, but I don't just don't know how this can be done quickly.

At least things are improving. Aren't they?

[HogTownHarry]

I think they should just take the RS and stick a clock on it.

Kidding. (please, let at least one person get this reference)

Welcome aboard, and I for one look forward to flying with the monkeys.

- out -

[j@beaus]

Hey Peter, great post. It does take a big set to make such a drastic change and I dig the direction, hope it works out well for you.

Set aside one of those 24's I'll pick it up on Friday.

[Olde School]

Not to hijack a thread but this reminds me of the situation of my brother-in-law who in the last year bought a pub in London.

For years I have drug him across Ontario and New York State to beer festivals and good beer bars and we totally see eye-to-eye on well made, yet more aggressive styles of beer.

However, when it came time to take over the pub, he played it close to the vest and stayed with the existing lineup of English imports and Canadian macros. He didn't want to upset the regulars. I countered that the regulars may keep you afloat, but they will never grow your business. How is he going to compete with every pub chain that offers the same selection but with big marketing dollars and brand recognition - the answer is he won't. In the last year I introduced him to Grand River and F&M and while he agrees that they are superior products he's not changing. In other words, the beer he would rather drink at home is not available in his own pub! Become the best little beer bar in London I scream, get noticed, reach out to new customers, but I digress.

Brewers of Ontario, they are called hops. I know they are not the complete answer, but they are part of solution. A few years ago at the Craft Brewers Conference a bigwig from the Siebel Institute said to me, 'the hope for brewers was simple - replace the 'e' in hope with an 's'.

[$]

I hope Flying Monkeys does well, it seems to be a move in the right direction , as far as beer I like is concerned. You'll have to forgive the complaints of beer geeks, but I'm sure we're not your target market at this point anyway.

Anyone know how long it took the American market to develop into the considerable microbrew haven it is now? I have to assume it didn't happen in a year, that it happened slowly.

This is Ontario, there is no real free market for beer here, we are controlled to what we can access. It will take much longer for beer drinking to change as long as it is controlled in such a manner. The changes we should be demanding are an end to the amount of control the LCBO has.

[tupalev]

Hey Jester, thanks for the reply, this is a good solid discussion. And on the internet no less!

My fingers are still tired from the last post, so I'll be brief

I certainly do understand what I am asking brewers to do. And yes, I would think it would be scary if I did not see it being done in other Provinces and States. It can be done and there are so many more of "us" than you think. Most brewers are pretty big beer fans themselves, I am confident someone (with financial backing) is going to figure it out here sooner rather than later. But I give full credit to them, I'm just a beer drinker, I never will have the balls (or desire) to be a brewer, which is why I really do respect what they do.

And I have to think that Ontario Brewers believe that what they're doing is the best way for them to make money. If they truly believed that there was money to be made by selling more stouts and German style beers, wouldn't they be doing it?

Good question. Maybe they are a conservative bunch and happy in their me too niche. Maybe they are not inspired by a success story like Mill St who has balanced mainstream appeal with multiple styles. But again, if we look outisde our stuffy border, we will see people being successful making multpiple styles of beer.

And those really are basic styles of beers - go into any brewpub in Quebec or Michigan - you'll see stout, pale, ipa, brown (brown! How many brown ales are regularly available in Onatrio?), lager, perhaps a seasonal wheat or porter.

At least things are improving. Aren't they?

Agree, they are. Very very slowly. But we seem to be in a rut. We had a wave of new brewers with some bold ideas around the time Bartowel started, but I'm not sure that momentum has been continued. The bold changes in our area now seem to be happening in importing, local cask beer, and Buffalo.

[SteelbackGuy]

Not to hijack a thread but this reminds me of the situation of my brother-in-law who in the last year bought a pub in London.

For years I have drug him across Ontario and New York State to beer festivals and good beer bars and we totally see eye-to-eye on well made, yet more aggressive styles of beer.

However, when it came time to take over the pub, he played it close to the vest and stayed with the existing lineup of English imports and Canadian macros. He didn't want to upset the regulars. I countered that the regulars may keep you afloat, but they will never grow your business. How is he going to compete with every pub chain that offers the same selection but with big marketing dollars and brand recognition - the answer is he won't. In the last year I introduced him to Grand River and F&M and while he agrees that they are superior products he's not changing. In other words, the beer he would rather drink at home is not available in his own pub! Become the best little beer bar in London I scream, get noticed, reach out to new customers, but I digress.

Brewers of Ontario, they are called hops. I know they are not the complete answer, but they are part of solution. A few years ago at the Craft Brewers Conference a bigwig from the Siebel Institute said to me, 'the hope for brewers was simple - replace the 'e' in hope with an 's'.

You're talking about the Black Pearl, aren't you?
If you are, then I know your brother in law. We've spoke many times about beer and how he'd like to offer his customers something different without upsetting them. I thik he's tried Okanagan Pale, Creemore, and Railway City. I am not sure how the sales went.

But man, he is passionate about good beer. We've spent a lot of time discussing IPAs and crazy American styles of beer that we both seem to enjoy.

In regards to his establishment, well, he does have one thing not in his favour and that is location. He's practically out of the city, up in Hyde Park. While the area is growing with the sprawl that London is so infamous for, it is still not convenient to access his establishment. There's only one bus that goes to that end of town, they're an hour apart, and don't run after rush hour.
And there is certainly a market in London for beer bars. We've got three now, and when I moved here 4 years ago, we had zero.

But I will say that if anyone here happens to be in London, at least check out the Black Pearl for a pint of Railway City and a pound of wings. I don't know what he uses, but they are damn delicious!

[icemachine]

Thanks for posting that Peter, and let us know when the "new" Confederation hits the shelves. Hopefully you'll still have some of the Hoptical available next time I head north

[viggo]

I doubt many brewers are making much money with their current model. Too many mediocre beers and mediocre breweries making the same stuff. Brewing is a big financial risk whether lagers or double IPA'sare going to be made. Why fight over the same piece of pie that everyone else is, when there is enough market here for quality to sell as much as is needed.

[tupalev]

However, when it came time to take over the pub, he played it close to the vest and stayed with the existing lineup of English imports and Canadian macros. He didn't want to upset the regulars. I countered that the regulars may keep you afloat, but they will never grow your business.

That's a really interesting example Olde School - I'd counter that with asking your brother in law to chat with Ralph at Volo. He can tell him all about slowly weening his regulars off of their old mainstream staples. It is stunning to believe Volo had Blue, Coors Light, etc on tap for so many years.

And yes, I know London and Toronto are different, but it is a positive example that change can be bold, successful, and profitable.

[The_Jester]

...yes, I know London and Toronto are different...

I'll add to this that I believe that the size and diversity of your market are important.

Things will sell in Toronto that won't sell in, say, North Bay, just because there are more potential customers.

At the same time, Peterborough is a tiny market, when compared to a place like Oshawa. But in terms of quality beer offerings, it isn't even close. Peterborough has all kinds of great places, while Oshawa has . . . nothing? Why is this?

[icemachine]

At the same time, Peterborough is a tiny market, when compared to a place like Oshawa. But in terms of quality beer offerings, it isn't even close. Peterborough has all kinds of great places, while Oshawa has . . . nothing? Why is this?

My FIL complains of this all the time, but he recognizes it has a lot to do with peoples tastes. It may be slowly changing, but even the new LCBO by the Oshawa Centre has very little in the way of OCB and seasonal selections, and those that come in do not move very well.

[Steve Beaumont]

US Air decided to cancel my flight back to Toronto from Philly Beer Week, so for what it's worth, here are my cooling-my-ass-at-the-Philadelphia-Airport two cents' worth:

On more than one occasion over the three days I've been in Philly, I have had to answer questions about why the Ontario beer market essentially sucks. (Their words, not mine.) One question came from a highly prominent US craft brewery owner who everyone here would know if I were to name him, which I won't.

My response each time was that, while many Ontario brewers do basic styles very well -- pilsner, brown ale, weisse, etc. -- they all seem to have a very tight comfort zone. Simply, Ontarians don't appear to want to take the risks that come with brewing more "out there" beers, be they IPAs, doppelbocks, or Imperial dark milds. Are there rewards that come with the successful creation of such beers? Hell, ya! Ask Sam Calagione, whose number one beer is 90 Minute IPA. Ask Greg Koch, whose flagship is Arrogant Bastard. Ask Tomme Arthur, Vinnie Cilurzo or literally dozens of other brewers who do "out there" very well.

So why not in Ontario?

Our brewers will say that people aren't ready for it, but I respectfully disagree. We sell through vast amounts of very expensive "out there" beer at beerbistro, so people do want to drink the stuff. (And that's to Bay Street types and downtown dwellers, not bartowellers, All About Beer subscribers, Beer Advocates, etc.) Granted, that's just one account, but it's an account that I think is representative of the urban mindset.

Being at Philly Beer Week has been an amazing eye-opener. Imagine nearly 700 beer events in a ten day period, with people excited -- I mean, rock star excited! -- about meeting brewers, brewery owners and visiting beer "celebrities." And wanting to try as much beer s they can, before going home to sleep and start it all over again the next day. Philly is living the craft beer dream, and I think Toronto can, too, but we need the beer first!

If you brew it, they will drink. I believe that sincerely.

(Apologies for the length of this.)

[Belgian]

My response each time was that, while many Ontario brewers do basic styles very well -- pilsner, brown ale, weisse, etc. -- they all seem to have a very tight comfort zone. Simply, Ontarians don't appear to want to take the risks that come with brewing more "out there" beers...

... Our brewers will say that people aren't ready for it, but I respectfully disagree.

Right. Saying Ontario drinkers aren't 'ready' for 'out there' beers because they aren't being made here is a logical fallacy, where one statement pretends to support the other yet neither statement by itself carries any meaning that is proven. "Circular reasoning."

The only thing that is known and proven in Ontario is, the selection of styles made is generally SO limited and boring... too many small players trying to out-compete each other with nearly identical products - by definition weak business leadership a great big capital risk.

Certainly one cannot not prove the 'out there' beers, if made here WOULD not sell - that's as yet unknown, and cannot even be stated as real fact.

Proving quite the contrary, Ontario buyers rush out of stores with their American Dogfish Head 60 Minute IPA and other 'out there' beers that the LCBO imports. Am I the dense one here, or are Ontario brewers completely missing the clues of how to gain a competitive edge in OUR beer market?

Is it not a sound principal of business - to identify a real, existing unfulfilled consumer need, and then fill that unserved "niche" so that the customer comes to you directly. If instead you are trying to squeeze into an already over-served niche, you end up just wasting all your time and resources chasing the consumer with gimmicky branding, marketing, lobbying and advertising. You "tire yourself out," doing endless sales which costs you your profit and don't get any time freedom!

You really want a customer that you only need to attract ONCE because their unfilled need exists, and they are already LOOKING for what you sell - and then who comes back repeatedly buying more of what you are ready to sell... because of the unique product they need YOU. No OCB promo will ever achieve any result like that, a relationship based on knowing what the consumer is already looking for and (ironically in this case) "ready to buy if they found it."

So: ask people what they want, rather then just over-sell them what you have.

I don't know how it is rational to say making 'dull' Cream Ales and Premium Lagers is 'playing it safe' because if the brewers have nothing unique to offer that is different from or more special than 20 other brands. It's a bit like trying to sell bags of sand alongside a beach.

That all said , good luck to 'em (and all the more to the few visionaries like Grand River.) Pardon my candor 'criticizing' breweries, as I'm sure there are a lot more clever ways to be successful in business (which partly explains the situation.) I'm actually sympathetic to anyone with a real dream and interest in smart business, and would love to see where this situation goes & learn from it myself.

[The_Jester]

...this is a good solid discussion. And on the internet no less...

I have to agree, tupalev. I'd really rather be having this discussion over a pint of Great Lakes Storm King Imperial Stout, or Trafalgar Hop Rod Rye, on the patio of a nice pub on Rue St. Laurent. And I'm not trying to be a smartass, here. This is a great discussion, and it would be even better in person.


Belgian, you say that "one cannot not prove the 'out there' beers, if made here WOULD not sell", and yet that seems to be exactly the assumption that most Ontario brewers have made. I'm not saying that I disagree with you, I'm saying that they do.

Why?

I think that what we need to do is look at the successful models, and try to understand why they work. And look at un- and moderately successful models and figure out why they don't. If we can figure that out, then maybe these models can be applied elsewhere.

Again I'll go back to Peterborough, since it's a model I'm familiar with. Why does Peterborough both have and support micros and specialtys, while much larger centers such as Oshawa don't. (For those not familiar, Peterborough (and surrounding area) has two micros, a brewpub, three beer-centric restaurants, and an LCBO that carries everything that's available.)

What about Church-Key? They make some beers that are both solid and bold, but only their pale ale can be found in the LCBO. Why?

Durham makes a great IPA. Why is it not widely available? Denison Weiss and Dunkel? What happened to Wellington's Imperial Stout? Do we blame this all on the LCBO?

Conversely, what did Mill Street do right with their Coffee Porter? What did . . . um . . . I can't think of any more positive examples.

I'm sorry. I'm rambling on here. Must be the home-brewed Scotch Ale talking.