Robert Simpson becomes.. Flying Monkeys?

[Belgian]

Belgian, you say that "one cannot not prove the 'out there' beers, if made here WOULD not sell", and yet that seems to be exactly the assumption that most Ontario brewers have made. I'm not saying that I disagree with you, I'm saying that they do.

Why?

I think that what we need to do is look at the successful models, and try to understand why they work. And look at un- and moderately successful models and figure out why they don't. If we can figure that out, then maybe these models can be applied elsewhere.

Sure, there seem to be products that meet a pre-existing customer need (Denison's Weisse, Dogfish 60) and some that just languish in obscurity. The ones that meet the need seem to always be in demand. So...

We could analyze specific differences in the two I suppose. Hypothetically: A cool-looking Rogue product that people here buy every time, versus Product B, a moderately unusual local product (good or not) with a dull bush-league look to it, ie.something that appears vague and half-committed.

The message product B sends is, "I don't know what I want, or who my customer is, or what I am trying to accomplish here. Please brush the dust off and take pity on this questionable beer."

The Rogue screams out "YOU WANT this, it's fresh fun and interesting and you've never had anything like it. YOU are cool and diferent for knowing about all the neat stuff on the label, and will at least enjoy our version of this style regardless..."

Rogue communicates success before the person even tries the product, and people are attracted more to those who project success - MUCH more than to something that's doubtful, because we people like to feel successful by association, even vicariously through products. Rogue 'guarantees' itself to people in a sense.

That's just my intuition on what Rogue brands communicate, that and the beer is generally fun and not infected or strange or weird, so people rarely object to them AFAIK. Very entertaining products.

So more people might try Rogue Chocolate Stout than would ever try Dead White Guy Imperial Russian Regal Stuffy-pants Stout. AND I bet you they are tickeld enough, find Rogue interesting enough to try other Rogue beers, on brand faith - AND other cool-lkoking stouts, breaking these consumer style boundaries!

Selling beer may be much less simple than this, but we're just making success-model comparisons.

[Dokta Owange]

well, Flying Monkeys has accomplished a "buzz" here (no pun intended) with the name change, which is what Robert Simpson lacked before...
I agree with Pete - the name was boring...nobody wants to drink beer named after an old dead guy (coughing) "John Labatts" (coughing) hahaha!

The Antigravity packaging is very cool - made me stop in my tracks at the LCBO - what did it make me think of? Magic hat...same kind of funky, off the wall hip graphics. Great job.
Did I buy it? No (bought my 60 min, and ST IPA), but it caught my attention.

I hope the Hoptical Illusion has an Amarillo punch...why do we as Bartowelers prefer the 60 min and ST IPA? We know they deliver on the IBU's....
We all know Tankhouse, and the Sgt. are our fav local hop brews - I want to be loyal to a local brewer, who supports our economy and grows our brewing community.

My question to you is: if you want Flying Monkeys to make one IPA - which one would you want it to taste similar to?
My choice: Hazed and Infused (Boulder Beer Co)

Cheers!

[dutchcanuck]

I would love a Ontario version of Troeg's Nugget Nectar. Now that stuff is tasty. I also understand that it might be too hoppy for Ontarian's untested pallet, so I would be just as happy with something similar to Nevada Pale Ale.

[Jon Walker]

My two cents...

First off, I'll also add my kudos to any and all brewers bold enough to post here. We're an ornery bunch and it can be a frustrating experience if you're on the wrong side of BT popularity...

But just to play devil's advocate for a second. I think there is some middle ground in this discussion between "out there" beer styles and "safe" market standards. Obviously brewers have to balance cost versus sales and, frankly, it's unfair for us to just simply say "look to successful U.S. brewers like Dogfish Head and copy that". There are so many factors that make brewing more costly here than there. Material costs are higher here, the government takes a bigger tax bite, shipping is more costly, listing products at the BS and LCBO costs more, etc, etc...Frankly the margins are much tighter. So many brewers walk the tightrope of financial viability much more acutely than do their brethren to the south.

So I do recognize the need to take smaller steps. I think we need to encourage and support breweries that make bolder beers but at the same time realize that their entire business plan cannot be to produce ONLY extreme beers. Many small brewers have to strike a balance by making such beers as seasonals or as a single product along side several safer beers made well. It is a case of both trying to grow and educate the better beer market and also catering to the one that exists.

So good luck to Flying Monkey. I continue to believe that any brewery that has some solid foundation in quality main stream beers can make the leap to bigger, bolder beers and find the market is ready for that...but it's still early days here and the transformative brewing revolution already underway in Quebec and B.C. especially is still 5 or so years away here IMHO.

[JesseM]

Just a young Padawan's opinion:

I'm fully aware that as an almost 21-year-old semi-enigma of a beer geek (meaning because I started so early), my experience is limited in regards to the OCB, but I've been a loyal customer for 2 years now, trying every OCB product I can find (even Trafalgar stuff), giving things second, third, fourth and fifth chances all in the hopes of discovering something truly special that I can support financially by drinking.

My first point is that, is risk-taking not the essential element in all success? Are there not great rewards in great risks? That's really more of a rhetorical question so please refrain from ripping me apart on that.....I know I know, baby steps baby steps......

Secondly, again I have limited experience, but from what I've gathered over these past couple years of pub crawling and casually observing people at the LCBO, I really don't think the majority of Ontario macro-swillers are quite so adverse to at least trying new things. It seems to me that it's a very small minority of people who are truly too afraid or ignorant to even take a sip of something to see if they might like it. Huge crowds of people show up every year in Kitchener's Victoria park for the OCB showcase/rib-fest, and can you guess which brewery always has the longest lines, BY FAR? Grand River. Probably since it's local, people here want to try the stuff, but maybe there's an element of interest in stuff that's 'different'? Surely, out of all those people, SOME must become repeat customers?

On the note of Grand River, their stuff sells, believe me. They've got a very solid local customer base, but in pubs their stuff also sells well, maybe it's the cool tap handles, or maybe it's the delicious beer, I don't know, but they've got something going for them. Filling a niche perhaps?

But enough of that rant. I'd like to sincerely thank Peter for coming on here to post, it's such a cliche statement but we really can be a tad harsh sometimes on this board. It seems to me though, that if you've got the balls to jump into this snakepit, you've definitely got what it takes to eventually put something out there beer wise that's going to really satisfy us beer geeks and shock/awe the 'other' beer drinkers of this province. I do look forward to trying the Hoptical Illusion, I just hope it'll be easily available to me locally. Good luck man, I'll support you in my own small way.

[$]

guys , the problem is the LCBO and the amount of government control of booze in this province. If we had a freer market for beer, craft brewers would be selling in the format they want to sell in, to anyone who wants to carry their beer. For example, grand river could easily sell their stuff in stores around their home city, and not be worried about the packaging and labeling that some bureaucrat who missed his coffee that morning decides to reject. There would be no red tape trying to get their product into the LCBO or BS, because their would be other outlets. Stores would be importing beer from the states and elsewhere. Sure the grocery stores wouldn't be carrying anything too crazy (well, whole foods would) but there would be specialty stores.
The problem is the government.

[tupalev]

The problem is the government.

For some people on this board, that will always be the answer.

Can you not acknowledge that is just part of the problem? It impedes, it does not prevent. Sure our Province sucks when it comes to alcohol regulation, but do not tell me other brewers in other states and provices do not have to deal with their own regulatory quirks and hassles.

Blaming the government is a very very easy answer. And in this case it is plain wrong.

If an Ontario brewer wanted to be creative and had the financial resources, that creative (bold) product would be on LCBO shelves, it is as simple as that.

Trafalgar puts out a ton of crap. Interesting crap mind you. Imagine if it was done right? And if they tackled other styles?

When Robert Simpson started up, they had the resources to get their products on the shelves (and build a very nice waterfront brewery from what I hear), whereas brewers like Scotch Irish struggled. It was all about resources. With enough money you can play the game.

Just look at the amount of mediocre Ontario product on our LCBO shelves - nothing prevented it from getting there. Imagine if those products were replaced by porters, IPA's, stouts, etc. . I am not even talking about the sales aspect and if it would be profitable/sustainable (that's another topic), I am just addressing the last post - if the brewers brew it, it can be made available to us.

Save the "government bad" argument for another revolutionary thread.

[cannondale]

The beauracratic/regulatory climate of Ontario presumably impacts all small brewers in a similar fashion.

In the particular case of RS/FM, I believe they have another major hurdle in their path to success. Barrie. Park outside any beer store in Barrie on any day of the week and enjoy the parade of 2-4's of buck-a-beer coming out the door. In a city of roughly 130,000 people, I don't believe there is a single craft beer tap anywhere. Not exactly fertile soil in which to grow a grassroots following and support structure. I believe it is well understood that for smaller brewers, a solid local consumer base is a pre-requisite to becoming a bigger brewer. As an initial step, I think it's a good idea to re-brand themselves. It's sad to say, but in the particular case of the Barrie market, a 'gimmicky' marketing scheme will go much further in building a strong local foothold than brewing 'risky' beer styles would. Hopefully, the risky beer styles can come later.

Good luck Flying Monkeys.

[tupalev]

I believe it is well understood that for smaller brewers, a solid local consumer base is a pre-requisite to becoming a bigger brewer

That is a good point cannondale and it got me thinking - maybe this is where some of our Ontario brewers go wrong?

A lot of good brewers set up outside Toronto, do not get a foothold at all in their local region (for whatever reason) and then rely on Toronto for a majority of their sales. I'm not sure that is a profitable business model? For every Church Key that is able to integrate itself into its local community (if it can be done in redneck rural Eastern Ontario, it can be done anywhere), there is a Black Oak, who I am pretty sure would say did not have any success in Oakville/Burlington.

I don't have an answer here, I just thought it was a pretty interesting point that was raised.

[tupalev]

I have to agree, tupalev. I'd really rather be having this discussion over a pint of Great Lakes Storm King Imperial Stout, or Trafalgar Hop Rod Rye, on the patio of a nice pub on Rue St. Laurent. And I'm not trying to be a smartass, here. This is a great discussion, and it would be even better in person.

Jester (note the lack of Mr. ), I'll send you a message next time I am in the Peterborough area - I am in the Quinte area once/month and if I can sneak away for a beer or two, I'll let you know. Besides Olde Stone, I've yet to take in the rest of the scene up there anyway...

[Belgian]

My two cents...

First off, I'll also add my kudos to any and all brewers bold enough to post here. We're an ornery bunch and it can be a frustrating experience if you're on the wrong side of BT popularity...

Absolutely! "BT popularity" is overrated.

None of this should be interpreted as an attack or taken personally, as may often happen.. Brewers taking part in this or any discussion are not putting themselves "under the line of fire" of all things said; the ones taking part are probably the more intelligent and proactive businesses who are on their way to superior market position, regardless. They could in fact share their positive insights and experiences on how they gained success (I'd love to hear their anecdotes.)

When you analyze what's REALLY going on in brand appeal or product appeal, you just want to take a brutally healthy look at the stark reality & take the worse possible perception someone MIGHT have of 'you' - ie. your product - and to work on that. Feeling bad personally will limit the success. People getting over that self-limit is what produces the "Rogues" on the world.

Maybe we're ALL a bunch or reactionary, over-cautious Canadians, LOL... but it would be silly to never talk about any business on the grounds that the business owner could not separate themself from their business and feel sore - It's in their very healthy financial interest to maintain that separation of 'self' and 'business'.

We are all a 'product' in what we do, and while it's damn uncomfortable to admit 'our' inadequacies - everyone is a little insecure! - this is a "good" kind of pain that leads to long-term growth and increased personal happiness that comes with increasing our mastery and success.

Nobody's better than anyone... our task in life is to 'admit' what one can change for the better, just like letting in a little ray of clear sunshine to one's thinking.

[JerCraigs]

What about Church-Key? They make some beers that are both solid and bold, but only their pale ale can be found in the LCBO. Why?

Durham makes a great IPA. Why is it not widely available? Denison Weiss and Dunkel? What happened to Wellington's Imperial Stout? Do we blame this all on the LCBO?

I can't speak for Church Key obviously, but I believe that most brewers make more money on sales at the brewery because the LCBO and Beer Store don't take a cut. My understanding was that CK sells a significant amount of product out of their brewery store. It may simply be the case that its not worth it to them to have more product in the LCBO if they are already selling it elsewhere.

I expect similar stories would emerge from Durham and Denisons. They sell quite well in the venues they are in, and as yet maybe the conditions have not been right for them to pursue wider sales.

[$]

It impedes, it does not prevent.

Save the "government bad" argument for another revolutionary thread.

OK, so I'll brew a great beer and the LCBO will stock it. Right? No problems? Imagine I could open my own store instead and carry great beers and not go through the red tape.

Don't talk about creating a craft beer market in Ontario and pretend government and the LCBO isn't the major part of the problem. Where else can I buy my beers? If the LCBO and BS turn down a beer, well, I'm stuck driving to the brewery, if they even bother to growler it. In a freer market there is much less to impede and prevent good beer being sold.

Man, and even look at what you say, "revolutionary" as though a freer market in alcohol is some sort of radical unheard of solution. I guess government isn't really the problem, it's people in Ontario and the way they think. LCBO save us.

[dutchcanuck]

I had Sgt. Majors IPA while I was in Ottawa and if I had access to that everyday in my local LCBO I would keep a sixer in my fridge at all times. I think it's wonderful what Scotch-Irish is doing by brewing a variety of beer. I also had Trafalgar's Smoked Oatmeal stout back in December and it tasted like an ashtray in my mouth. With that said, I still bought a couple bottles of their Cedar Cream Ale (not bad, but not great either...I could barely taste the Cedar) and I will continue to try the products they put out because they offer variety and the brewery should be rewarded for their successes and failures. The point that I am getting at is how can we communicate to Brewers that branching out beyond a Pale Ale or Lager would be fantastic.

I like the Rogue analogy and I would like to know how well their sales are doing in the LCBO. I mean if a US brewery from New Port, Oregon can break into the Ontario market with a quality product why can't an Ontario brewery do the same thing? What's stopping them? Is it prohibitively expensive to list items in the LCBO? I mean if Grand River had their products on store shelves I would be buying it every week. However, I cannot justify road trips to Guelph every weekend.

So really, all I am asking is how can we get someone, anyone, to put quality Ontario IPAs, stouts, porters, trappist-style ales in Niagara? Please? Pretty please? You know what they say, "Variety is the spice of life" so spice it up already!

[Belgian]

I think it's wonderful what Scotch-Irish is doing by brewing a variety of beer.

I have a massive respect for Perry Mason's prowess and those ale recipes - whoever is currently brewing them! - and while exceptional beers those products are still horribly under-branded:

Dead White Guys on labels, bush-league look from the graphics & printing, not very exciting names or descriptions. About as "hip" as bangers & mash, actually. This is really not selling great brand identity to adventuresome young people... yet that branding remains a real possibility for marketing the very same beer styles Heritage makes.

Perhaps it's a downfall of branding (and even products) that people often try to market what they think THEY, themselves think they would like to see. Problem is.. you're not the one buying your own products!

"Know your customer."