LCBO Spring 2009 Release

[boney]

Wow. As always, thanks for the super detailed response. I think I speak for everyone when I tell you that contributing to the dialogue here, in a very fair, even way is always appreciated.

I think my original post was unintentionally a little blunt and perhaps a little myopic. After digesting your post, I think I better understand the subtleties and necessities in building a brand from an economic standpoint and how that relates to the continued supply of good beer in a small market. Luckily the Schloss Eggenberg beers happen to be a worthy brand. It all comes down to long term sustainability and growing craft and specialty beer demand and awareness with the general public I guess, not just the small minority of us BT'ers. I guess my original thinking was that it might be detrimental to try to do this based on "putting all the eggs in one basket"/a bunch of doppelbocks from one brewery, or as Tuqueboy pointed out, 3 doppelbocks in the spring release. I was trying to express the thought that more variety equaled more potential new discoveries to set people on the path of beer enlightenment. In retrospect, however, the mere fact these beers are available at the LCBO is probably enough to temp a few adventurous macro drinkers to try something out of the ordinary and the fact that there are so many doppelbocks probably isn't even on their radar anyway.

If it's good business for R&R and the LCBO and keeps good beer coming into the provance, I probably shouldn't be complaining. It's more a rant against the limited system in Ontario than the beers. The "redundancy" comment was, admitedly, unfair. Three doppelbocks are great....I just wish we had 3 abt's, 3 gueuze, 3 IIPA's etc.

Hopefully success with the Schloss Eggenberg doppelbocks will indeed be good on many levels: 1). a continued supply of these great beers (I will continue to buy all 3, every year they are available), 2). a greater investment of the brewer in the Ontario market, potentially resulting in more of their products in the future (maybe the Naturtrub someday?), and 3). a growing appreciataion of specialty beer in general.

Cheers,
Jay

[dutchcanuck]

R&R,
That was an amazing reply and I can completely understand where you are coming from. Sometimes consumers just demand the impossible. I am by the way, one of those people who would love to try something new every week. Too bad you can't run your 'warehouse' where we, the consumer, could come and mix a 24. I would drive to Toronto for that.
Anyway, thanks for posting and I hope to do business with you in the future.

[detritus]

R&R - Great post, as always full of useful, logical info.

One quibble though:

People talk about wanting niche beers, yet we had difficulty securing orders for Panil and ended up with a measly 15 cases. How can we expect the LCBO to take risks with products?

This argument has always bugged me (I've heard it from a bunch of agents, with respect to both beer and wine).

Just because people won't buy very expensive beer, by the case, six months in advance, doesn't mean it wouldn't sell by the bottle in the store.

Actually, I think the Panil is a great example - if this was put into stores, it would probably do great, both with the "good beer" market, as a "special occasion" item with the broader market, and if it was marketed properly, with the italian-canadian community.

This isn't, of course, the agents' fault - but the LCBO should be taking these "risks" to serve the public that doesn't have any other shopping options.

-Josh

[Bobsy]

R+R - you guys are a class act, as ever. Thanks for the explanation.

a porter from one of the breweries you mentioned is coming to the LCBO shelves later this year.

Cheers,

oh, don't tease like that. souther tier, i presume?

I may be wrong, but the smart money would be on Nøgne.

[tuqueboy]

I may be wrong, but the smart money would be on Nøgne.

doubt it, given this:

- pricing… any idea what a bottle of Scandinavian Porter costs in 600ml size? We will be issuing a private order call for four Nøgne Ø beers next. Send us an email in 2-3 weeks and we will tell you how important diversity is to beer drinkers in Ontario..

[Derek]

In the Winter and Spring releases we have Urbock 23, Doppelbock Dunkel and Samichlaus. All 3 are doppelbocks, all from Schloss Eggenberg and all appear at the LCBO within 4 months of each other. How is this diversity, how does this do beer drinkers or the LCBO any good whatsoever, and who at the LCBO approved this and thinks its a good idea?

I'd say they're actually quite different.

The Doppelbock Dunkel is certainly a doppel. As you go further south in Germany, they tend to be more attenuated (lighter body & less residual sweetness). It seems as you cross the border, this trend continues.

The Urbock 23 is more blonde and I think it's quite different from most doppels.

And Samichlaus is pushing 14%, which is an entirely different beast.

There's so many different Euro-lagars, I'm happy to see some variety in another style! (One that use to be represented by Salvator alone).

As for 3 doppels in the spring release, I think it's great! (though it is my favourite style, so I am a little biased). But it is that time of year, and it is a true seasonal. I'd be really happy to see multiple hefe's in the summer, Octoberfests in the fall and winter warmers in the winter. I don't think everything needs to be seasonal... but it is nice to see some representation.

[Bobsy]

I may be wrong, but the smart money would be on Nøgne.

doubt it, given this:

- pricing… any idea what a bottle of Scandinavian Porter costs in 600ml size? We will be issuing a private order call for four Nøgne Ø beers next. Send us an email in 2-3 weeks and we will tell you how important diversity is to beer drinkers in Ontario..

I need to be a more thorough reader! I suppose one could always dream (and of course, take part in the private order).

[Belgian]

The Doppelbock Dunkel is certainly a doppel. As you go further south in Germany, they tend to be more attenuated (lighter body & less residual sweetness). It seems as you cross the border, this trend continues.

The Urbock 23 is more blonde and I think it's quite different from most doppels.

And Samichlaus is pushing 14%, which is an entirely different beast.

Indeed sir derek. Saying these are all "too much the same" is like saying we should not get all three Chimay beers from Belgium. I'm happy R & R went after these releases, and brought these exceptional & unusual style lager beers into our tight little market.

[boney]

I know that the Schloss Eggenberg doppelbocks are all different and aren’t even all classic doppelbocks

If the "too much of the same" argument is coming from my first post in this thread, I just want to clarify that I didn't actually say that, quite the opposit, AND that I do actually love doppelbocks.

My question was more a marketing question directed at LCBO philosophy.....how to best grow the specialty beer market in Ontario? With a bunch of different doppelbocks that are in the same "family" or with a bunch of beers from different lineages? Arguments can be made on both sides, which R&R did quite eloquantly. Maybe the problem is me making the assumption that the LCBO actually WANTS to build this market. It's hard for any importer with this mission to succeed if the LCBO isn't commital.

Historically, doppelbocks are indeed an absolutely appropriate offereing for a "spring" release, but there's nothing written in stone that says that they all have to be offered in a limited window. Why not spread them more throughout the year? Same with wheat beers in the summer. I know they are largely considered summer beers, but I would kill for a Grlosch Weizen right about now.

My beef is more about TIMING rather than an specific dig at either doppelbocks or R&R......both of which are aces in my book.

[sphilp]

I've been busy with school lately and completely missed the Winter release(lack of money certainly doesn't help), but today I decided I'd treat myself for finishing all my midterms so I went and picked up more brutal bitter as well as kells irish and john by.

First time having the kells irish and I must say its one of the better lagers I've had. Very pleasant apple and a touch of malt and hops. Looking forward to more BB and john by later tonight.

[Roland + Russell]

No offense taken, we are all brothers in arms when it comes to popularizing craft beers in this province. For those who would like to learn more about future product calls, here is some fine reading:

http://www.lcbotrade.com/pdf/Spirits%20 ... 9-2010.pdf

Have a great weekend,

[Belgian]

- excerpt - Maybe the problem is me making the assumption that the LCBO actually WANTS to build this market.

Yeah, boney, that strikes a nerve for me!

I have the feeling the LCBO mainly wants to make good appearances on the outside... but it's a completely self-serving organization on the inside.

The LCBO is VERY afraid of its own extinction, very reactionary and defensive and inscrutable.

That's just my gut feeling. They certainly could take a MUCH greater interest in selling products - namely with fewer big useless stores and more good products. I feel they could do this IF they weren't so focused on this or that agenda trying to look "important" and nervously cling to its power.

I think we would LOVE the LCBO - and want to preserve it - if the people running it got their head out of their arse and did some sincere Ontario market research. Impress us for a change. There's NO reason a business with all the resources of hte LCBO can't create a wonderful & infinitely varied shopping experience.

(Well... no reason except their conflicted guilt over profiting by the sale of an addictive drug... let us admit their 'responsible Crown retailer' propaganda dances around this huge contradicion.)

[shintriad]

- excerpt - Maybe the problem is me making the assumption that the LCBO actually WANTS to build this market.

Yeah, boney, that strikes a nerve for me!

I have the feeling the LCBO mainly wants to make good appearances on the outside... but it's a completely self-serving organization on the inside.

The LCBO is VERY afraid of its own extinction, very reactionary and defensive and inscrutable.

That's just my gut feeling. They certainly could take a MUCH greater interest in selling products - namely with fewer big useless stores and more good products. I feel they could do this IF they weren't so focused on this or that agenda trying to look "important" and nervously cling to its power.

I think we would LOVE the LCBO - and want to preserve it - if the people running it got their head out of their arse and did some sincere Ontario market research. Impress us for a change. There's NO reason a business with all the resources of hte LCBO can't create a wonderful & infinitely varied shopping experience.

(Well... no reason except their conflicted guilt over profiting by the sale of an addictive drug... let us admit their 'responsible Crown retailer' propaganda dances around this huge contradicion.)

On a somewhat related note: I was at my local today, early in the morning (gotta get that head start!) and chatting with the cashier. He was lamenting the fact that he doesn't have nearly enough hours lately, and they've been cutting a lot of shifts. I suggested that the LCBO might do well to be open later, especially on Sundays, but he pointed out that it'd automatically mean time-and-a-half, and in fact, at nearby LCBO locations they're actually closing on Sundays.

The problem is, the LCBO is simply not run like a business. It's a government office. They're constantly on "work to rule" and have no incentive to hustle to pull in revenue, and they have no reason to maintain good customer relations.

[Belgian]

And sitting there closed on a Sunday, it's a waste of overhead.

The 'Bo really has no fire under its arse to compete for the market, no 'hustle to survive.' If they had any real hustle, they would be working harder for our business when times are lean - not calling it a day and slacking off on the service.

For the LCBO to just ride out the recession with the whole massive system in slow motion is ludicrous, is beyond imagining for any other business - but for them predictable, and they'll get away with it.

Now - let's get back to Spring Release!

[SteelbackGuy]

And sitting there closed on a Sunday, it's a waste of overhead.

The 'Bo really has no fire under its arse to compete for the market, no 'hustle to survive.' If they had any real hustle, they would be working harder for our business when times are lean - not calling it a day and slacking off on the service.

For the LCBO to just ride out the recession with the whole massive system in slow motion is ludicrous, is beyond imagining for any other business - but for them predictable, and they'll get away with it.

Now - let's get back to Spring Release!

I'm not sure I agree with that at all. I respectfully disagree.

A lot of stores are open on Sunday. 6 stores in London are open, and a lot of major centres have all or most stores open. I work each and every Sunday, with only a few exceptions. Only the really small stores are normally closed, and that is not only because business is slow, but the workers want 2 days off a week just like people in other industries. Keep in mind, small stores might only have 3 or 4 employees.

In terms of riding out the recession, well thats not true at all. We had a sale in February that saw many bottles at a drastically reduced price to help in "tough times". There was also a sale on higher end vintage list items as well. And while a lot of those items aren't affordable to most people, they were still put on sale. And even if times are lean, our sales are up over 6% over last year, so we are doing something right.......or people are just spending more on booze. In any event, sales are up and are going well.