Is Quebec THAT much different from Ontario?

[Cass]

I think the only state that is worse than Ontario would be Utah.

I've been to Utah for skiing, and it isn't as bad as some of the stories make it out to be. Beer can be bought in grocery, but I think it does have to come in under a certain alcohol %. They have state run stores like us, although they aren't open on Sunday. And the bars get around many of the strange laws by being "private clubs" which means you pay a cover charge at the door and you become a member.

I think the worst of the US is simply where beer isn't very relevant, such as Florida. But at least you've got warm weather and beaches.

[Belgian]

I take exception to the perceived nirvana of depaneurs. In a big city like Montreal there are huge tracts of town where you cannot find any retailers selling any decent beer.

but also my impression is that it is even harder to import into Quebec than Ontario (correct me if I am wrong). You don't see much in terms of high quality US or European beers in stores in Quebec.

I think the same can be said for the United States. I think people in Ontario might be a bit spoiled since New York State has a great variety of easily available liquor and beer.

So, for the sake of balanced discussion, can we say that despite the Povincial stranglehold of liquor sales, a well-served region of Ontario may be better off than many parts in the USA, or than some areas of Montreal?

We might also guess that certain progressive trends in the LCBO's buying and marketing/sales MIGHT lead to a very beer-friendly system, in the way Vintages serves wine drinkers reasonably well in terms of INTELLIGENT selection.

Still, the great selection in New York State is heart-breaking at the moment.

[Bobbyok]

I asked a knowledgeable friend who told me to get in my car and drive several km to the nearest decent store. Not exactly as easy or sensible as our local LCBOs.

...a local going to the store for their groceries and maybe a sixpack is confronted with the same limited or worse choice than we have.

There are a couple of good points here about the dep / SAQ system not necessarily being better in all places. But I still think that the retail system for Quebec beers lends itself to being very supportive of the provincial brewing scene. While there are vast areas without a good depanneur, there are some amazing ones with great selection. That is definitely a first step that is missing in Ontario - allowing someone to open such a shop or add it to their existing store.

A co-worker dropped by a Loblaws in St Jovite a few weeks ago and picked up a mixed 12-pack from Dieu du Ciel. Just being able to say that puts that segment of Quebec's retail system way past ours.

The real distinction is that many of the Quebec and US brewers wouldn't exist but for the possibility of selling in a few local stores - a possibility that does not exist in Ontario, or at the very least is a much bigger headache than selling in privately operated stores. Ontario's, and many of Canada's provinces, retail and regulatory system keeps breweries from ever getting started because you have to start-up on a much larger scale than you can in Quebec or the US.

Aside from the retail aspect, NS has a rule that you need a minimum annual capacity of 20,000 litres, and I suspect other provinces have similar rules. With that rule in place you'd have to have a 15 gallon system and brew every single day to make it. Even a 1 BBL (117 litres) system would need to be brewing almost every second day. So you have to start big and/or you've got to do it full-time, just to get a license. To achieve the scale you need to get into government retail, you've got to be even bigger. I'm betting that scale scares a lot of people away from ever starting - which is one reason why QC has more brewers per population than just about anyone else in the country.

Ontario brewers also feel the need to have a "safe" style of beer that tends to be in the LCBO. Quebec brewers can push the envelop a bit more (admittedly they are also helped by the fact that depanneurs can't sell imports that aren't represented by a local brewery). Even here in Halifax, Propeller and Garrison started experimenting a lot more when our private shops opened - they had a better, smaller scale avenue to sell their seasonals.

So yes, you'll get "pockets" where beer selection is better than others with a private system. But the alternative is that breweries (good and bad) never get started.

[Belgian]

The real distinction is that many of the Quebec and US brewers wouldn't exist but for the possibility of selling in a few local stores - a possibility that does not exist in Ontario, or at the very least is a much bigger headache ...

That's a laser sharp point right there. Ontario should be the land of opportunity, but you can't just start up a Hair Of The Dog size brewery and easily sell local. You cannot just follow your bliss & 'live the Canadian dream of opportunity.'

The Ontario system sets itself dead against small business in this case, and it's bizzarre. At a time when large business interests weigh on govenment to allow all our manufacturing 'legally' outsourced to the second & third world, why can't we freely make our own working opportunity brewing beer? Is it TBS & MoBatt's who would not like that? Are WE being indirectly regulated by the interests of large business?

Let's bring back rampant grass-roots brewing!

[iguenard]

Buy local doesnt make much sense if you cant get your locals to sell local.

Dats loco!

[Philip1]

WRT Utah at least you can get Polygamy Porter - http://tennesseeguy.files.wordpress.com ... porter.jpg

WRT Quebec, they may produce more good beers but are ordinary people that much more likely to drink microbrews than Ontarians? Is it really a cultural thing rather than business? I ask because based on my experience with Francophone Quebeckers (mostly from Quebec City) in recent years they strike me as being even less adventurous than small town Ontarians.

[Tapsucker]

I asked a knowledgeable friend who told me to get in my car and drive several km to the nearest decent store. Not exactly as easy or sensible as our local LCBOs.

...a local going to the store for their groceries and maybe a sixpack is confronted with the same limited or worse choice than we have.

There are a couple of good points here about the dep / SAQ system not necessarily being better in all places. But I still think that the retail system for Quebec beers lends itself to being very supportive of the provincial brewing scene. While there are vast areas without a good depanneur, there are some amazing ones with great selection. That is definitely a first step that is missing in Ontario - allowing someone to open such a shop or add it to their existing store.

A co-worker dropped by a Loblaws in St Jovite a few weeks ago and picked up a mixed 12-pack from Dieu du Ciel. Just being able to say that puts that segment of Quebec's retail system way past ours.

The real distinction is that many of the Quebec and US brewers wouldn't exist but for the possibility of selling in a few local stores - a possibility that does not exist in Ontario, or at the very least is a much bigger headache than selling in privately operated stores. Ontario's, and many of Canada's provinces, retail and regulatory system keeps breweries from ever getting started because you have to start-up on a much larger scale than you can in Quebec or the US.

Aside from the retail aspect, NS has a rule that you need a minimum annual capacity of 20,000 litres, and I suspect other provinces have similar rules. With that rule in place you'd have to have a 15 gallon system and brew every single day to make it. Even a 1 BBL (117 litres) system would need to be brewing almost every second day. So you have to start big and/or you've got to do it full-time, just to get a license. To achieve the scale you need to get into government retail, you've got to be even bigger. I'm betting that scale scares a lot of people away from ever starting - which is one reason why QC has more brewers per population than just about anyone else in the country.

Ontario brewers also feel the need to have a "safe" style of beer that tends to be in the LCBO. Quebec brewers can push the envelop a bit more (admittedly they are also helped by the fact that depanneurs can't sell imports that aren't represented by a local brewery). Even here in Halifax, Propeller and Garrison started experimenting a lot more when our private shops opened - they had a better, smaller scale avenue to sell their seasonals.

So yes, you'll get "pockets" where beer selection is better than others with a private system. But the alternative is that breweries (good and bad) never get started.

Good points. Perhaps the best baby steps would be to at least allow breweries their own off-site stores. Forget the whole distribution thing (for now) and let the brewer sell in locations where they don't brew. It might not be economically perfect, but in spirit (pardon the pun) a business could grow without additional licensing overhead.

[Kel Varnsen]

Good points. Perhaps the best baby steps would be to at least allow breweries their own off-site stores. Forget the whole distribution thing (for now) and let the brewer sell in locations where they don't brew. It might not be economically perfect, but in spirit (pardon the pun) a business could grow without additional licensing overhead.

I agree with the baby-steps. I wonder if, it was legal, if brewers would be interested in making partnerships where one brewery sold another brewery’s product at their store. If the brewers would go along with it I think it would be a great way for brewers to make little expansions in their distribution and have greater availability. For example I would love to be able to buy some products from some of the other small Ontario brewers, at the Heritage Brewing retail store. I wonder if breweries would be into that, even on a limited basis (like some sort of beer exchange program)?

[inertiaboy]

Good points. Perhaps the best baby steps would be to at least allow breweries their own off-site stores. Forget the whole distribution thing (for now) and let the brewer sell in locations where they don't brew. It might not be economically perfect, but in spirit (pardon the pun) a business could grow without additional licensing overhead.

I agree with the baby-steps. I wonder if, it was legal, if brewers would be interested in making partnerships where one brewery sold another brewery’s product at their store. If the brewers would go along with it I think it would be a great way for brewers to make little expansions in their distribution and have greater availability. For example I would love to be able to buy some products from some of the other small Ontario brewers, at the Heritage Brewing retail store. I wonder if breweries would be into that, even on a limited basis (like some sort of beer exchange program)?

Didn't Hart and Robinson do something like that back in the last century? Or was there a corporate structure change required to do so?

Generally, I don't think a brewery would want to introduce the hassle of managing and selling another company's product. They are likely busy enough taking care of their own business first. It would really need to be a tied store or a separate retailer.

[Kel Varnsen]

Good points. Perhaps the best baby steps would be to at least allow breweries their own off-site stores. Forget the whole distribution thing (for now) and let the brewer sell in locations where they don't brew. It might not be economically perfect, but in spirit (pardon the pun) a business could grow without additional licensing overhead.

I agree with the baby-steps. I wonder if, it was legal, if brewers would be interested in making partnerships where one brewery sold another brewery’s product at their store. If the brewers would go along with it I think it would be a great way for brewers to make little expansions in their distribution and have greater availability. For example I would love to be able to buy some products from some of the other small Ontario brewers, at the Heritage Brewing retail store. I wonder if breweries would be into that, even on a limited basis (like some sort of beer exchange program)?

Didn't Hart and Robinson do something like that back in the last century? Or was there a corporate structure change required to do so?

Generally, I don't think a brewery would want to introduce the hassle of managing and selling another company's product. They are likely busy enough taking care of their own business first. It would really need to be a tied store or a separate retailer.

I wonder about that. I mean sure there would be extra work required selling someone else's product. But the benefit is you now have someone else in a different location selling your product in exchange (potentially a product that isn't listed with the LCBO). So you get to expand your market without the added costs and effort associated with building/buying/managing/staffing a second location.

I mean there was a news story on the main page a few months ago about how Great Lakes Brewery, Cameron's and Church-Key are working together on some collaborative projects. I wonder if those beers would be available at each brewery's retail store. It is not that much of a jump from doing that kind of thing to what I suggested above.

[Bytowner]

At a time when large business interests weigh on govenment to allow all our manufacturing 'legally' outsourced to the second & third world, why can't we freely make our own working opportunity brewing beer? Is it TBS & MoBatt's who would not like that? Are WE being indirectly regulated by the interests of large business?

Yes. You're welcome.

[cannondale]

How many people feel that homebrewing is an 'insufficient' alternative to the LCBO and TBS?

[Tapsucker]

I agree with the baby-steps. I wonder if, it was legal, if brewers would be interested in making partnerships where one brewery sold another brewery’s product at their store. If the brewers would go along with it I think it would be a great way for brewers to make little expansions in their distribution and have greater availability. For example I would love to be able to buy some products from some of the other small Ontario brewers, at the Heritage Brewing retail store. I wonder if breweries would be into that, even on a limited basis (like some sort of beer exchange program)?

Didn't Hart and Robinson do something like that back in the last century? Or was there a corporate structure change required to do so?

Generally, I don't think a brewery would want to introduce the hassle of managing and selling another company's product. They are likely busy enough taking care of their own business first. It would really need to be a tied store or a separate retailer.

I wonder about that. I mean sure there would be extra work required selling someone else's product. But the benefit is you now have someone else in a different location selling your product in exchange (potentially a product that isn't listed with the LCBO). So you get to expand your market without the added costs and effort associated with building/buying/managing/staffing a second location.

I mean there was a news story on the main page a few months ago about how Great Lakes Brewery, Cameron's and Church-Key are working together on some collaborative projects. I wonder if those beers would be available at each brewery's retail store. It is not that much of a jump from doing that kind of thing to what I suggested above.

Wasn't the Brewers Retail co-op supposed to be about the same basic idea?

[grub]

baby steps? isnt' that what we've been doing for the last decade? we're never going to get anywhere if all we ever do is baby steps.

[SteelbackGuy]

baby steps? isnt' that what we've been doing for the last decade? we're never going to get anywhere if all we ever do is baby steps.

Agreed. Baby-steps are needed like a fish needs a bicycle.