SteelBackGuy's comments from locked thread

markaberrant · Post by **markaberrant** » Wed Aug 10, 2011 9:55 am

Copied from http://www.bartowel.com/board/viewtopic.php?t=7051

I can tell you that while we do have a few people on the forum here that practice due diligence and have common sense, I will also say that your points will mostly fall on deaf ears.

The Bartowel has been, and will continue to be a place, less and less, where Ontario beer is the main issue, where Ontario beer is praised/critiqued, where we discuss how our scene can be improved by our own beer, but more and more where folks continue to state that we live in a communist province, with essentially nothing good to say.

I'm pretty much done with it at this point. I reached my breaking point a few days ago. I am less and less interested in our "beer scene". Not the Ontario beer scene......no, I love that. I love what folks like Milos and Adil and Ralph and George are doing. THEY LOVE ONTARIO BEER.Beer brewed in this province for people in this province. No,I am talking about "our" beer scene here, where the only good beer is an ultra hopped mega IIPA or Sour Ale with 30% ABV and one off availability.

I'm done with it. I'm done with advocating on here for what most members do not believe.

I love Bartowel....at least I did. I don't really anymore. Sorry Cass, Greg. You guys are awesome. But I just can't participate here like I used to. Too much negativity.

I'll stop by from time to time........but for the most part I am done. Done with the "scene". Done with trying to educate. Done with trying to further things the way I see them, cause the way I see things is the opposite of everyone else here. I'm done with the negativity. I can't fill my life with this hostility. I am happy with what we have here and if I am the bad guy for being that way so be it.

Not trying to turn this into a massive debate or argument, but I thought this was a great post, I fully agree, and it really hit the mark on how I feel. I have cut back my forum contributions on all the beer sites I participate in. I found that I was contributing to the negativity by arguing my point, and wasn't getting anywhere. Sometimes it is better to just let these things go.

I have been heavily involved in the craft beer and homebrewing scene for about 6 years. I have brewed, chased down and drank a lot of beer, and have come to strongly believe in these 3 statements:

Support your local brewery.

Beer tastes best closest to the source.

Beer is a social thing, and is meant to be shared.

JesseM · Post by **JesseM** » Wed Aug 10, 2011 10:00 am

Ren was twice the man I know most others to be!

But yeah I sort of gave up on serious posts a long time ago for similar reasons. C'est la internets.

matt7215 · Post by **matt7215** » Wed Aug 10, 2011 10:42 am

you can do things to change the beer scene in ontario and help educate people about how great good beer is.

you cant do it on the internet

bufordsbest · Post by **bufordsbest** » Wed Aug 10, 2011 11:44 am

matt7215 wrote:you can do things to change the beer scene in ontario and help educate people about how great good beer is.

you cant do it on the internet

this ^^^^^

markaberrant · Post by **markaberrant** » Wed Aug 10, 2011 12:12 pm

matt7215 wrote:you can do things to change the beer scene in ontario and help educate people about how great good beer is.

you cant do it on the internet

Again, very well put!

sprague11 · Post by **sprague11** » Wed Aug 10, 2011 12:22 pm

Len is/was right that this site does seem to be veering away from improving the beer culture in Ontario and instead turning into a grounds to complain about what we don't have. I enjoy the discussions about great (and not so great) beer - that's one of the things that led me here.

I'm glad to see the August OCB release, as limited as it may be, will be providing some quality beer from some of the best brewers in the province. I would love to see our brewers give me reason not to go to Buffalo and Michigan for beer, and some of them are doing that. Smashbomb, Mad Tom and Crazy Canuck have been great, and I'm happy to finally be able to get Grand River bottles without having to drive to Kitchener. Even Amsterdam has released a quality stout! I hope that these sell well, and in turn encourage whatever retail avenues we do have to continue to support these brewers.

The LCBO releases have been improving. Greatly. I can now head to my basement and open either a can of Red Racer or a bottle of Cuvee Rene - something I could not do back in May. LTM Porter, Ayinger Celebrator and Garison IIPA in the same release? If these end up at one of my local stores i'll gladly buy them - saves me trips elsewhere and it shows that I support the LCBO bringing in these styles, and encourages our local brewers to try something out of the norm.

The Beer Store still sucks for the most part, but at least my local has Mad Tom, Black Oak Pale, the two Paddock Wood releases, and some Unibroue and McAuslan. At one point the only adventerous thing my local beer store stocked was Cameron's.

I still wish I could find my favorite US, Quebec and Western Canadian brews here. Maybe some day they will, maybe they won't. Still, I can appreciate what we do have here and am happy to support by buying the products that I like.

A half-empty glass is still half-full!

Bobsy · Post by **Bobsy** » Wed Aug 10, 2011 12:43 pm

There are ways to try and change the beer scene and grumbling on bartowel isn't one of them. None of it offends me and people can post what they want, but after reading the site for several years, the negative comments seem old and repetitive.

I don't post much on any beer sites anymore, partly because I've ran out of things to say, and partly because I keep hearing the same things.

It's evolution. I think if you're part of any forum long enough, you feel the same way. That's okay though, there are always new members who haven't had those discussions yet and want to make their voices heard.

My general comment on our beer scene is that we're on a upward trajectory. Change may not be as fast as many of us want, but it's happening, and this genie can't be out back into a bottle. I think we can raise a glass to that.

iguenard · Post by **iguenard** » Wed Aug 10, 2011 12:44 pm

Completely agree with Sprague.

Things ARE getting better, but at the same time it is always good (in a way) to remind ourselves of the road yet traveled, and that the journey may well be a long one.

For my part, I'll enjoy the trip and trust that recent progress indicates that the train is headed in the right direction.

This may never be USA-type distribution, but if Quebec's evolution is any indication, we may very well end up reading similar complaints one day from down south on the unavailability of those awesome Ontario beers.

Like I said, train has barely left the station guys. Show your ticket or get off, but train will stay on tracks

Love you guys.

Kel Varnsen · Post by **Kel Varnsen** » Wed Aug 10, 2011 1:17 pm

sprague11 wrote: I still wish I could find my favorite US, Quebec and Western Canadian brews here. Maybe some day they will, maybe they won't. Still, I can appreciate what we do have here and am happy to support by buying the products that I like.

I have sort of come to the conclusion that this is the same all over. I mean sure we can't get much quebec or BC or US beers here. But you pretty much can't get any ontario microbrews in quebec, you can get a few in BC. And from what I have seen the selection of Ontario beers is zero, and the availability of European imports is pretty minimal too. So sure the selection at the LCBO might not be the best in the world, but at the same time it is not the worst either, and I don't think there is any system out there that is perfect.

cmadd · Post by **cmadd** » Wed Aug 10, 2011 3:23 pm

Kel Varnsen wrote:
sprague11 wrote: I still wish I could find my favorite US, Quebec and Western Canadian brews here. Maybe some day they will, maybe they won't. Still, I can appreciate what we do have here and am happy to support by buying the products that I like.
I have sort of come to the conclusion that this is the same all over. I mean sure we can't get much quebec or BC or US beers here. But you pretty much can't get any ontario microbrews in quebec, you can get a few in BC. And from what I have seen the selection of Ontario beers is zero, and the availability of European imports is pretty minimal too. So sure the selection at the LCBO might not be the best in the world, but at the same time it is not the worst either, and I don't think there is any system out there that is perfect.

Just to stir the pot a bit... You don't think it's pretty embarrassing that most serious bottle stores in the US have a better selection of out-of-Ontario Canadian beers than we do? I was just in Chicago and the bottle stores I visited had a better selection of Central City, DDC, Charlevoix than we do here.

cratez · Post by **cratez** » Wed Aug 10, 2011 3:25 pm

delete

Cass · Post by **Cass** » Wed Aug 10, 2011 4:03 pm

Just to stand up for Greg, there are a lot of seasonal threads that get off topic and a bit more general towards the LCBO. I'm sure there was no intention to suppress opinion. By all means voice thoughts about the release specifically in the thread.

We have lively debate here as there are a lot of passionate people who love beer. And we have a system that is at times frustrating that we can't get what we want. Let's not take anything out on each other.

Contact me if you want to chat further. Or find me at Brewery Market or Golden Tap Awards or any other event and I'd be happy to have a beer to discuss!

GregClow · Post by **GregClow** » Wed Aug 10, 2011 4:12 pm

cratez wrote:Regarding the title of the "complaints about LCBO (split from Autumn '11 release" thread. This is a completely illogical, insulting, and poorly labelled title, as I was voicing a CRITICISM of the Fall Release and the LCBO, not a "complaint" about either.

You say tomato. I say avocado. Whatever.

cratez wrote:Also, the lack of capitals suggests that Greg is purposely trying to divert attention away from the thread (God forbid somebody disagrees with his pro-LCBO views), and the locking of the thread - ostensibly done to prevent me from replying to the other posters - is exactly the type of dictatorial behaviour that stifles "lively beer chat," and, ironically, is chastised by members of this site and Rate Beerians when they criticize the manner in which the Beer Advocate forums are run. No hypocrisy or bias here!

Wow - nice paranoia/martyr complex you've got going on there!

I honestly gave very little thought to the title of the split thread - and capitalization thereof - when I did it. It was late, I was tired, and I just wanted to get it done. I locked the thread because it I felt it was redundant. In the original Autumn 2011, I linked to another thread that had been set up specifically to discuss/debate problems with the LCBO.

As for my supposed "pro-LCBO views" - unlike many people here, I can recognize both good things and bad things about the LCBO and their policies. When they deserve to be criticized, I've done so. When they deserve to be praised, I've done so.

And in regards to be being "dictatorial" - try being a admin on this forum for a while, and see how many threads YOU'RE tempted to delete, move, or shut down. Frankly, I think that Cass and I often give more leeway here than some people deserve. Situations like this are few and far between.

Here's the bottom line:

I'M GETTING REALLY FUCKING SICK OF EVERY GODDAMN THREAD I START TO DISTRIBUTE USEFUL INFORMATION ABOUT SPECIFIC BEER RELEASES BEING DERAILED INTO GENERAL LCBO BASHING!!! If it keeps happening in those threads, I'm going to keep splitting/deleting/locking posts.

This is not censorship, this is simply trying to keep those threads useful for people who want to find, buy and discuss the beers in those releases. I've received a number of private messages in the past from people complaining about the derailment of those threads, and out of respect for those people - as well as myself, given the work that I do to compile and post that information - I think I'm perfectly within my rights to do so.

Kel Varnsen · Post by **Kel Varnsen** » Wed Aug 10, 2011 4:17 pm

cmadd wrote:
Kel Varnsen wrote:
sprague11 wrote: I still wish I could find my favorite US, Quebec and Western Canadian brews here. Maybe some day they will, maybe they won't. Still, I can appreciate what we do have here and am happy to support by buying the products that I like.
I have sort of come to the conclusion that this is the same all over. I mean sure we can't get much quebec or BC or US beers here. But you pretty much can't get any ontario microbrews in quebec, you can get a few in BC. And from what I have seen the selection of Ontario beers is zero, and the availability of European imports is pretty minimal too. So sure the selection at the LCBO might not be the best in the world, but at the same time it is not the worst either, and I don't think there is any system out there that is perfect.

Just to stir the pot a bit... You don't think it's pretty embarrassing that most serious bottle stores in the US have a better selection of out-of-Ontario Canadian beers than we do? I was just in Chicago and the bottle stores I visited had a better selection of Central City, DDC, Charlevoix than we do here.

Not really, it would take a lot more than that to embarass me. Besides like my original post said there is a lot of good stuff the the LCBO gets that I have never seen in the us. I mean I don't think I have ever been to a store in the US that carries Fuller's ESB (for that matter Fuller's Vintage Ale), yet it is in nearly every LCBO I go to. So I am not sure the selections in other areas are better or if they are just different.

cratez wrote: A lot more, actually. A solid range (say, 12 or more) of year-round craft IPAs, porters, saisons, stouts, and sours would be a good start. Or even just half of what the tiny convenience store in the small town of Port Huron stocks. Granted, these baby steps would likely require a complete overhaul of our liquor laws, the AGCO, and our alcohol retail and distribution system (i.e. allowing for private stores to compete with the LCBO and TBS, elimination of lab testing, etc). In the meantime, I'm willing to make the treks to Michigan and Buffalo.

But how much of the difference in selection do you think is driven by the LCBO and how much do you think that is drive by the brewers in the US themselves? I mean say I am a successful brewer in some random state in the US. If I want to expand my distribution, am I going to expand it to neighboring states, which would be relatively easy to do, or am I going to expand it to another country and have to deal with things like customs, and importing agents and making sure my labels say "bière" and that they have the volume listed in mL. Even if beer was sold in private stores none of those requirements would go away. And if we are dealing with "Micro" breweries here that produce relatively small amounts of product to begin and can easily sell it in their own country with why would they go through that hassle?

cratez · Post by **cratez** » Wed Aug 10, 2011 4:26 pm

delete