The Bar Towel

Craig wrote:They really ought to exclude partial returns of online orders. Although it's not as open to abuse as some other stuff. What's to stop someone from buying an expensive bottle of whiskey, trying a glass, then returning the bottle?

Nothing. Why should there be? It doesn't make a blip. They probably damage more stock in shipping / warehouse in one week than the losses from all possibly scammy or questionable returns in one year.
Or not - I'm saying this is an organization that barely accounts for its own losses (as when huge internal scams go unnoticed) because the margins are insanely fat, and add to this the LC barely makes an effort to be efficient and yield the province maximal revenues (deliberately over-paying suppliers to charge us a consistent markup, instead of banking the difference or giving us better prices, for example.)
So no, they can't selectively eliminate the 'good faith' agreement that we, the captive consumers can return something we don't like, or that we feel doesn't represent the point-of-sale description or represent good value, etc. It's hypocritical on a few levels, and its politically unsatisfactory for a monopoly that barely pulls its weight to relieve somewhat our tax burden. We PAY for the scant return/refund privilege in other words, and in many ways.

Craig wrote:They really ought to exclude partial returns of online orders. Although it's not as open to abuse as some other stuff. What's to stop someone from buying an expensive bottle of whiskey, trying a glass, then returning the bottle?

Their official return policy is that returns are only acceptable for unopened bottles, which must be in undamaged and resalable condition. The only exception to that is if the product is defective in some way (e.g., I was able to return a bottle of LTM Porter years ago due to oxidisation) and which would not be put back on the shelf again. They've become extra anal about accepting opened bottles since a few publicised cases of people returning vodka filled with water. Ending returns for online orders would mean altering their return policy, particularly dancing around Social Responsibility directive and I feel it would be horrible for purchasing their online exclusive beers, that you just wish to try, but don't want to be stuck with the entire case. It would be the end of my ordering, that's for sure, unless I already know and love the item.

Craig wrote:What's to stop someone from buying an expensive bottle of whiskey, trying a glass, then returning the bottle?

Until they widen the sampling program* to the level of free enterprise retailers, there is NO WAY they can (or should) prevent people from returning products they do not like ... or defective product such as corked wine ... or old beer they are so famous for selling


* so people can try before they buy. And I'm not talking about charging for the samples like they do at "flagship" stores where they derive more revenue from the full bottle worth of samples than selling the full bottle

also, I have a feeling they charge back the distributor/supplier for the open stock taken back from customers (which usually a full bottle is given in exchange rather than refund) - so no reduced "dividend" to pay for all that health care

Only allowing unopened returns makes sense and I hope they enforce that to the max.

I don't see any reason why we should expect the lcbo to protect us against buying stuff we don't like. In any other business that return policy would be absurd, and rightly so.

Craig wrote:Only allowing unopened returns makes sense and I hope they enforce that to the max.

I don't see any reason why we should expect the lcbo to protect us against buying stuff we don't like. In any other business that return policy would be absurd, and rightly so.

I hope you're not applying that statement to the LCBO online exclusive beers, since they are forcing us to buy the entire case or non at all. And, again, a return is not a big deal since the local will quickly sell those bottles (eg., both my returns so far have sold very quickly).

Aside from that, I don't support or expect to return an opened product, unless it is defective in itself (not just not good for me, ergo, I've done a few drain pours) but I accept there is a lot of wiggle room here for subjectivity. If you take my LTM Porter returned a few years back, due to being off flavour from oxidisation, they took my word for it, without trying it themselves. I would be furious had they refused to accept a $10 bottle of defective beer. Honestly, I don't think this is a big issue at all, since I assume 99% of purchases do not get returned.

Craig wrote:Only allowing unopened returns makes sense and I hope they enforce that to the max.

I don't see any reason why we should expect the lcbo to protect us against buying stuff we don't like. In any other business that return policy would be absurd, and rightly so.

Not absurd at all, there are many retailers that will take back just about anything the customer is not satisfied with - Walmart is famous for this type or policy, Costco and Home Depot will also take back product if customer is not satisfied! Next time you're in one of the major retailers take a peek at the returns area and see for yourself the state of the items they accept for return, the majority of which sent back to the manufacturer and/or destroyed.

Taking back products for whatever reason (even if used) encourages impulse purchases - the vast majority of which are not returned - ergo good for business. People would hesitate to buy stuff if they knew the retailer would not take them back if it "didn't work out"! Modern retail could not survive if people only made planned purchases ... and impulse buys require a certain amount of faith on the consumers' part that if they make a mistake the retailer will correct it.

The return policy is one of the few redeeming qualities of the LCBO.

Online sales are restricted to cases specifically because the costs with processing partial cases aren't worth it. The costs associated with partial returns are even worse, it must destroy their profit margins.

Comparing to big box stores doesn't make sense, unless you compare to their grocery businesses, where I doubt they are as forgiving with returns. Plus they don't have a monopoly, so they can write off some of those costs in the name of brand loyalty.

It's one thing to allow returns of faulty product. Everyone supports that. It's another to let people return stuff just because they don't like it. I'm fine with that too, so long as the returned product is in good order and saleable condition. Letting people use a product that specifically limits them to cases, but letting then return all but one bottle on the spot is bad policy.

Craig wrote:Online sales are restricted to cases specifically because the costs with processing partial cases aren't worth it. The costs associated with partial returns are even worse, it must destroy their profit margins.

Comparing to big box stores doesn't make sense, unless you compare to their grocery businesses, where I doubt they are as forgiving with returns. Plus they don't have a monopoly, so they can write off some of those costs in the name of brand loyalty.

It's one thing to allow returns of faulty product. Everyone supports that. It's another to let people return stuff just because they don't like it. I'm fine with that too, so long as the returned product is in good order and saleable condition. Letting people use a product that specifically limits them to cases, but letting then return all but one bottle on the spot is bad policy.

The product ends up flying off the shelf. They make their money anyways. The only way I see this being a problem is if it ends up sitting on shelves and not selling at all. But then people wouldn't be racing to buy it online anyways. I think the supply and demand sort themselves out here.

jburley2 wrote:

Craig wrote:Online sales are restricted to cases specifically because the costs with processing partial cases aren't worth it. The costs associated with partial returns are even worse, it must destroy their profit margins.

Comparing to big box stores doesn't make sense, unless you compare to their grocery businesses, where I doubt they are as forgiving with returns. Plus they don't have a monopoly, so they can write off some of those costs in the name of brand loyalty.

It's one thing to allow returns of faulty product. Everyone supports that. It's another to let people return stuff just because they don't like it. I'm fine with that too, so long as the returned product is in good order and saleable condition. Letting people use a product that specifically limits them to cases, but letting then return all but one bottle on the spot is bad policy.

The product ends up flying off the shelf. They make their money anyways. The only way I see this being a problem is if it ends up sitting on shelves and not selling at all. But then people wouldn't be racing to buy it online anyways. I think the supply and demand sort themselves out here.

It makes for inefficient use of shelf space, but more importantly, there's overhead involved in processing the return and getting it back on shelves.

I am certainly worried that, if a high percentage of online orders end up coming back as partials, the whole program gets cancelled or scaled back significantly. I'd certainly like to believe that, instead, it would lead to them changing to a partial order model, but I'm not optimistic.

rejtable wrote:I am certainly worried that, if a high percentage of online orders end up coming back as partials, the whole program gets cancelled or scaled back significantly. I'd certainly like to believe that, instead, it would lead to them changing to a partial order model, but I'm not optimistic.

or a restocking fee!

This "loophole" will be tightened up sooner or later depending on what kind of chaos is created.

Maybe if the LCBO just stocked a few of these exclusives in-house instead of more sub-par Ontario craft lagers and ambers we wouldn't have an issue.

Rant over.

You people are nuts to worry about this. You have started to sympathize with your captors. There is nothing special about these beers. If you can sell me a can of naughty neighbour for $2.50 and I must buy $50 worth of product for delivery, then you can sell me a $10 Olde Brune and make me buy $50 of product for the delivery.

I"m not sure why the LCBO fear that they can't sell a few 100 bottles of something across several million people in a captive market. If that's really the case, then the product is inferior.

Before now, they were driving this stuff all over the province hoping it would find an audience in the trailer that serves as the LCBO in Wild Woman Junction. I think they can get a warehousing solution in place that would allow them to open a case and track a bottle being shipped. Every other online retailer is available for consulting if not.

Craig wrote:Online sales are restricted to cases specifically because the costs with processing partial cases aren't worth it. The costs associated with partial returns are even worse, it must destroy their profit margins.

Weeping right now. With laughter. The LCBO doesn't assume or need the same margin on everything they sell, certainly not high end and niche/specialty stuff. Some things in Vintages etc. might as well be loss leaders, and the LC who are in a privileged position have to serve the market without forcing cases of stuff down people's throats.

Craig wrote:It makes for inefficient use of shelf space, but more importantly, there's overhead involved in processing the return and getting it back on shelves.

You can hear the smallest violin in the world I'm playing here. They can't run the entire system streamlined like a Home Depot and own the entire captive market while they neglect the real consumer's needs. These small orders are not the bulk of their business, they don't really blip on the LCBO's overall massive profits, and it's been proven the 'Bo don't try to be all that efficient in the first place. So I don't care how they deal with shelf space, overhead, or hassle. They've had it too easy too long and I bet some of the better store staff are bored and would love something to do (they are always asking about or trying new stuff, so make friends with them.)
2¢

Orval_Al wrote:Maybe if the LCBO just stocked a few of these exclusives in-house instead of more sub-par Ontario craft lagers and ambers we wouldn't have an issue...

They can and likely will. There were Online Exclusive wines from Greece on the shelf at the Danforth-Chester store for example. The store managers KNOW there are people in looking for Xinomavro wines or amazing Greek wines, so they make a goddamn SECTION in the store for it, straight back from where you walk in the store and they brought in full cases to put on shelves. This is only a week or two after online ordering started.

Well now... there's an argument for stocking individual LCBO stores to support a proven local market!