Southern Tier IPA / Dog Fish Head - where art thou?

[cannondale]

Question. Why does the LCBO 'test' alcoholic beverages. Does the government test any other consumables? There's just as much chance of a can of root beer from norway (for example) being 'dangerous' as there is with a bottle of pale ale from NY. IN fact, I'm willing to bet that the quality systems in place at most breweries is as much or more robust than at those producing most imported foods. I'm just curious. Do they test every new type of bread? Cheese?? Licorice and lollipops??

I do know this. The government of canada does not test medical drugs on import. Foreign manufacturers are required to demonstrate that they have a suitable quality system in place as well as a number of other requirements, but the products are not tested by health canada. The manufacturers test their own products, and provide the results to the government prior to import as well. I am going to assume that of course the brewers have quality control systems in place, and test their products regularly. Perhaps it's a lack of an international standard for alcoholic beverage quality?

Or is it just a roadblock??

[bujubanton]

Has Andy Brandt or any of his successors infiltrated this forum?
Sounds like it...judging by the posts of Jon Walker and Bytowner...

First, I don't think the province tests every other product coming into Ontario of a non-beer type....and if ST is sold in NY state (hardly a backwater) then it is safe here.

So I should "chill" because the LCBO has offered us a few crumbs..and because it's really lousy selection in other provinces? (actually Manitoba has had better beer selection than Ontario, so does Alberta and B.C.)
Sounds like you have Stockholm syndrome when it comes to the LCBO.

There is no reason to chill. Years late...they finally agree to let us spend our money on a couple products we want (23 years after we were promised beer and wine in the corner store) and they are a month late on that promise...and trying to blame it on a small New York state business and its "bar code issues."
Sorry, but I am missing the point of what it is that the LCBO is doing that is so nice? If the price is reasonable, then of course that's good, but do they score points for not even gouging us further?

And Phillips is too far away? Hmm...I can buy cherries from B.C., or apples...but not one of the best beers in North America? I guess it would cut down on my consumption of that mouth-watering Tiger beer they sell at the liquor store.
how about we compromise? No Phillips. But maybe some Bells products? Michigan is one store over. I can buy the Two Hearted Ale in a grocery store in Sault Ste. Marie. Michigan...I guess they are missing out on the all knowing state liquor board that should be making it difficult to get these products.

[lagerale]

FYI, we are the Ontario agents for Phillips of B.C.. A number of months ago we pitched the Double Amnesiac IPA for one of the seasonal promotions. It was rejected with the usual one line rejection which gives no reasons other than other products were deemed more suited for the promotion in question. We do intend to offer other Phillips products to the LCBO for both seasonal listings and a General List call in the not too distant future.

Does that mean you can bring in the Double Amnesiac as a private order (not 100% on the terminology), similar to what you do with other imports? Sign me up if you can.....Or is it only worth it if you can get enough product ordered by the LCBO...just wondering.....cause if you could show how well it does with the beer heads, perhaps that might help the cause.

[esprit]

The freight on a small Consignment/Private order of Phillips would be twice what it is from Antwerp, Belgium if not more...it's simply not worth it unless you're prepared to pay $7 for a 650ml bottle...any takers?
As for lab testing, I agree that few products in our market are subjected to the analysis that alcohol must go through. The LCBO gives all suppliers the option of providing ISO certified lab reports on their products but the LCBO's list of compounds which must be tested is longer than your arm and many are not tested or measured in any other jurisdiction in the world including most Canadian provinces. The tests would cost hundreds of dollars which would be fine for a permanent general listing but for a small seaasonal one shot order, no brewery will absorb the expense. My favourite example is the Cantillon Kriek we brought in a few years ago...it tested over the limit for Potassium Ferocyanide and was "not acceptable for sale in Canada". This is a naturally occurring substance in cherry pits and for it to cause any harm to a person you would have to drink 100 bottles a day for year...the LCBO lab even acknowledged that...nonetheless, they protected all of you from consuing this poison whereupon we shipped it to Montreal where it was sold in Quebec...no questions asked! You can see the bodies on the streets of Montreal now...red lips and all.

[JesseM]

nonetheless, they protected all of you from consuing this poison whereupon we shipped it to Montreal where it was sold in Quebec...no questions asked! You can see the bodies on the streets of Montreal now...red lips and all.

Hahaha

Wow, I'm actually mildly infuriated that we can't get Cantillon Kriek because there's actually limits on how much of a certain substance can be in product. That seems absolutely, mind-bogglingly absurd. I want some damn Cantillon Kriek . In protest, I'll now eat a bag of cherry pits outside my local LCBO everyday, until they provide me with a single bottle of Cantillon. I think this could work out well for me....

[detritus]

I am tired of the defending of the LCBO..why should I thank the government-monopoly for being years late in actually listening to some of its customers?

Has Andy Brandt or any of his successors infiltrated this forum?
Sounds like it...judging by the posts of Jon Walker and Bytowner...

Dude, chill out.

First, "tired of"? You've been registered on this forum for less than two weeks. You're complaining about posts by long-standing, well-respected members of this community. A quick look at your posts so far (here) indicates that since you joined, you've done quite a bit of complaining and not much else. Maybe tone down the attitude a bit until you've contributed something worthwhile to the forum.

Second, nobody here is an apologist for the LCBO,although a few forum contributors do work for them, and give us a lot of good insight into how things operate there. We all know that things could be better in the Ontario beer scene. Most of us acknowledge though, that there's been a pretty marked improvement in the last year or two, and we're generally pretty hopeful that it'll continue. Further, there's been some indication that the powers that be at the LCBO are aware of and might read BarTowel on occasion. Certainly a number of importing agents do. Keeping things positive here, as well as giving judos when judos are due can't hurt.

-Josh

[bujubanton]

Sorry..did I offend your sensibilities?

And you are going back and searching previous posts...to see if I am polite enough?
That's kind of creepy.

Why not just address the criticisms (which I thought was okay in a democracy where the government is the only distributor)...I have made, instead of getting mad because I am less than thrilled with our distribution monopoly.

If you have a reasoned, thoughtful explanation as to why it is so difficult to get something as simple as a brand of beer, which people want, into this province, please let me know.

I am not attacking anyone on this forum. I am just saying it is ridiculous to cut the LCBO slack...and I don't get it why they are being cut slack.
They don't deserve it.
And I believe that's a fair comment (based on the facts and many other posts here).

[bujubanton]

and if you read Esprit's last post, you'll figure out why we shouldn't "chill" anymore..."dude"

[The_Jester]

I am tired of the defending of the LCBO...

Did I miss a memo?

[detritus]

Sorry..did I offend your sensibilities?

Yeah, wasn't that clear?

And you are going back and searching previous posts...to see if I am polite enough?
That's kind of creepy.

No, just a couple of clicks. In fact, it shows your "joined" date beside each of your posts. I'm always suspicious of ranting, negative posters who've just recently joined. They tend not to add much to the value of this board, nor to stick around very long.

Why not just address the criticisms (which I thought was okay in a democracy where the government is the only distributor)...I have made, instead of getting mad because I am less than thrilled with our distribution monopoly.

Without getting into the odd equivalence you seem to be drawing between a web forum and a deocracy...

You're not listening. Nobody is disputing the fact that the LCBO could do a better job of bringing in more/different/better beer. It's a valid criticism. In fact, it's been made here pretty much daily since this forum has been online. Just about every contributor here has made the point. As well, I did address your other criticism, that the forum is full of LCBO apologists: it's not, but there a a lot of people here who think the LCBO is on a better track recently and comment positively on that.

If you have a reasoned, thoughtful explanation as to why it is so difficult to get something as simple as a brand of beer, which people want, into this province, please let me know.

Shit happens. We have, for a multitude of reasons, a centralized, monopolistic liquor board. This is unlikely to change any time soon. I'd like it to change, so would lots of othe BarTowelers, but it's not really an issue for most Ontarians. If you don't like it, run for office, or call your MPP, or move to Buffalo. Send us a postcard andlet us know how the hospitals and schools there are.

Given the system we've got, there're lots of reasons why we don't see all the brands you'd like to see. The breweries are too small to supply the LCBO system. They aren't interested in exporting to Ontario/Canada. They aren't represented by an Ontario agent. Etc., etc., etc. Worth noting that the beer-focussed agents working in the province right now have done great stuff (especially Peter and R&R) and bring in lots of beer we didn't see a couple of years ago. If you're interested, become an agent, see if you can do better. Good luck.

I am not attacking anyone on this forum. I am just saying it is ridiculous to cut the LCBO slack...and I don't get it why they are being cut slack.
They don't deserve it.
And I believe that's a fair comment (based on the facts and many other posts here).

Actually, you are attacking people here. You said:

Has Andy Brandt or any of his successors infiltrated this forum?
Sounds like it...judging by the posts of Jon Walker and Bytowner...

That's an attack. The tone of the rest of your posts in this thread and other is also fairly accusatory.

I'm not sure why you don't think it's appropriate to react positively when the LCBO does something worthwhile. There's been a positive reaction here to the recent listing of a bunch of US micro product, as well as some solid seasonal releases. I'm not "cutting them slack", I'm applauding good decisions. Do you propose that the LCBO get no positive feedback if they do anything short of open the system entirely?

-Josh

[hops are your friend]

The freight on a small Consignment/Private order of Phillips would be twice what it is from Antwerp, Belgium if not more...it's simply not worth it unless you're prepared to pay $7 for a 650ml bottle...any takers?

Yes, I'll take a case, maybe two. $7 isn't much more than I'd pay for a bomber in Syracuse (or Canton, NY which is my closest decent beer store), and if I don't have to drive to get good beer, then I'm in.

I'm sure I paid > $6 per bottle for the ST Back Burner in the last order (and I don't want to think about how much I paid for the Doggie Claws that arrived upside down, etc a year or two ago).

Many of us are lucky enough that price is not a significant barrier to enjoying good beer. Why not put out a 'call for orders' and see what the response is?

[detritus]

and if you read Esprit's last post, you'll figure out why we shouldn't "chill" anymore..."dude"

Why, cause the LCBO rejected a shipment of Kriek four years ago? Yeah - that's old news and the decisions was soundly bashed about here when it happened. I'm still upset, but I've preety much got over it. There are a lot of places in the world other than Ontario where Kriek is unavailable.

-Josh

[Bobbyok]

Good point...and a further example of how the LCBO, when they get something right, really benefit us. Those prices are ridiculously good considering duty, tarrifs, cost of transportation etc...

It's not getting something right or of benefit if their prices are artificially low because of the way the system is set up - much like regulating the price of gas.

Because once in awhile someone gives a reasonable defence on the LCBOs behalf in the face of our constant bitching about everything?

I've yet to hear a "reasonable" defense of the provincial liquor monopoly system that couldn't be easily rejected in economic or social terms.

While our selection isn't great, especially when compared to stores across the border, I could point you to any number of provinces and other countries that would make you wish to God you had the selection available at the LCBO. Go talk to a Quebecker about the seasonals we get.

Yes, but their system encourages a lot more local content. Compare what Quebec micros, many of which appear to be readily available in stores in Hull/Gatineau, Montreal, and Quebec City, are doing with their Ontario counterparts, and you'll feel much less sorry for Quebec beer drinkers.

The freight on a small Consignment/Private order of Phillips would be twice what it is from Antwerp, Belgium if not more...it's simply not worth it unless you're prepared to pay $7 for a 650ml bottle...any takers?

Do you really believe that people aren't willing to pay $7 for a bomber of craft beer? Seriously? Rogue bombers sell here for $8 a bottle at one of our private stores and they consistently sell out of several of them (they have a difficult time keeping the Chocolate and Shakespeare Stouts in stock) quite quickly.

how about we compromise? No Phillips. But maybe some Bells products? Michigan is one store over. I can buy the Two Hearted Ale in a grocery store in Sault Ste. Marie. Michigan...I guess they are missing out on the all knowing state liquor board that should be making it difficult to get these products.

Bell's is a good example of a brewery that has chosen not to sell in a number of areas. Illinois, for instance, doesn't have Bell's, though I understand that's a distributor issue. And I'm pretty sure that they're a brewery that has turned down offers for private orders from people here ont he Bar Towel.

In general, I understand your frustration. I think everyone here does. But BarTowellers have been registering the same complaints for years. You're really preaching to the choir here. It's not that people don't agree with you - it's that it's tiring to hear the same complaints over and over again and at the same time realize there's very little that can be done about it because until the LCBO and other provincial monopoly retailers are gone, very little is going to change.

[lister]

FYI, we are the Ontario agents for Phillips of B.C..

Oh! I'd love to get my hands on some Phillips Double Chocolate Porter. I'd join in a private order if one was organized. Of course I'd prefer a seasonal or general listing...

[Jon Walker]

Has Andy Brandt or any of his successors infiltrated this forum?
Sounds like it...judging by the posts of Jon Walker and Bytowner...

And to think thus far I've actually been taking you seriously. I do love when some wet behind the ears newbie signs on to a forum like this and starts taking pot shots at guys like me. Your ignorance is pretty staggering.