KOSTRITZER SCHWARZBIER

[Jon Walker]

Everytime Kostritzer gets mentioned, I always say, "it's ok, but Black Cat is better." And that's not just a provincial bias, it truly is a better beer. Black Cat rules on tap, too bad it's only available in Saskatoon.

It's also available in B.C. through private stores like Brewery Creek in Vancouver. They also had the Bete Noire and the IPA when I was there recently.

Ooops! Just re-read your post and I think you meant the draft version is only in Saskatoon. My bad.

[Bobbyok]

I really like this beer.

Is Lacey Cellars still the agent for Kostritzer?

They are, according to Steve's post above. Lacey Cellars...sounds like an x-rated movie star.

Steve's post was from January of 2005, so it may not be up to date.

[Belgian]

Hate it. Sorry.

To each his own...your loss IMHO

And your gain. To your health!

It's WEIRD that I typed that years ago. I LOVE the Schwarzbier style, and was just in the middle of Thüring for a good few days - Bad Køstritz was a short train hop away.

I was ordering on draught and seeking in bottle stores the dozen or two brands of Schwarzbier. Köstritzer makes a good one I recc to people here esp in the summer (yes, these dark beers that are not heavy, see????) and they make a decent Pils.

The style is extremely regional over there, but every second glass at a bar is pitch dark with this stuff. Doppelbocks and Rauchbiers are rare even though Bavaria is next door. I guess one could say the beer is the land. Travel and see it![/list]

[Belgian]

I had my first Kostritzer about a week ago, and I really enjoyed it. Big coca and caramel flavours, but not remotely as heavy as I was expecting. Easily the sort of beer that you could session. Is this the schwarzbier that was featured in the Michael Jackson 'Beer Hunter' series? I watched it while I had a fever, so my recollection is hazy, but I thought how they added super heated rock to the brew was a stroke of genius.

That was a stienbier from Bamberg. That brewery closed years ago. I think they continued brewing it in Austria for a while....

Not to be a PITA but Steinbeer is not a style associated with smoked beer from Bamberg, but rather is a beer scorched with red hot stones - and comes from around Marktoberdorf which is very many train stops away.

The ancient technique was used to boil wort in wooden "kettles" which cannot be heated directly by fire. Rauchenfelser Steinbier (Br. Joseph Sailer) was a decent example of this rare style, if it still exists.

Köstritzer rocks regardless, better than most German beers in a can over here!

[Derek]

I had my first Kostritzer about a week ago, and I really enjoyed it. Big coca and caramel flavours, but not remotely as heavy as I was expecting. Easily the sort of beer that you could session. Is this the schwarzbier that was featured in the Michael Jackson 'Beer Hunter' series? I watched it while I had a fever, so my recollection is hazy, but I thought how they added super heated rock to the brew was a stroke of genius.

That was a stienbier from Bamberg. That brewery closed years ago. I think they continued brewing it in Austria for a while....

Not to be a PITA but Steinbeer is not a style associated with smoked beer from Bamberg, but rather is a beer scorched with red hot stones - and comes from around Marktoberdorf which is very many train stops away.

The ancient technique was used to boil wort in wooden "kettles" which cannot be heated directly by fire. Rauchenfelser Steinbier (Br. Joseph Sailer) was a decent example of this rare style, if it still exists.

Köstritzer rocks regardless, better than most German beers in a can over here!

Actually it was in MJ's segment on Bamberg/Franconia... maybe Coburg? They weren't using wooden kettles, but the direct-fired rocks picked up smoke from the wood, and apparently gave it a little Rauch flavour. Unfortunately I've never tried one.

[old faithful]

Greg, you may be right about the separate, stlylistic origins of Black Beer. There were numerous black beers in continetal Europe that predated Porter, including one that was based in Flanders that was revived in Colorado I believe it was, the 15-- something beer (with a year denoting the era of currency of the style, I can't recall the full name of the brand).

Also, in more modern Flanders, there were black (and red and white) beers - we all know about the white - so-called in the 1800's and earlier. My source for the latter are notes on historical beer styles in French Flanders by Pierre-Andre Dubois in a magazine published by the local beer lobby, Les Amis de Biere.

However I believe that traditions may have merged: the original German black beer one with the later porter one with the later lagering trend. Porters were famously influential and admired in Eastern Europe...

The Kostritzer has a leathery note and also a roasty note that remind me of many porters, too.

Now a potential irony: could (a presumed) Germano-Flemish black beer have been itself the source for Porter? I have always felt this was possible. The Flemings came to Britain in 1500's or thereabouts and famously brought hops, but they could have brought more, a taste for specific styles, and their terminology. In The History of the Pint, it is suggested that AK, a beer style of which only one brand is now extant, probably stands for "a__ keut", a relatively low-hopped, low AVB beer current in Flanders for generations. (The blank space is because I can't remember the first Flemish word in that name but it is in the book). I have seen in separate materials this reference to keut beer in Flanders, its one-time existence there is unquestioned. No apparent connection between keut beer and porter or black beer, but I mention this because it may show some definite influence of incoming Flemings on English beer styles.

I have always felt, although Michael Jackson disagreed and told me so once in person, that the Belgian Poorter sold in those stone crocks - I can't recall name of brewer at the moment - was a porter-like beer and perhaps its ancestor stimulated the development of Porter in the early 1700's. This might be something as simple as, the word porter might have been a dialect word in England for a roasty brown/black beer, brought over by Flemings, and when three threads/entire emerged as a style, it became dubbed by this old dialect or cant term. The whole thing about porters (carters, I mean) loving the style and the name coming from them always struck me as fanciful.

Anyway, see ya all tomorrow.

Gary

[Belgian]

Not to be a PITA but Steinbeer is not a style associated with smoked beer from Bamberg, but rather is a beer scorched with red hot stones - and comes from around Marktoberdorf which is very many train stops away.

The ancient technique was used to boil wort in wooden "kettles" which cannot be heated directly by fire. Rauchenfelser Steinbier (Br. Joseph Sailer) was a decent example of this rare style, if it still exists.

Köstritzer rocks regardless, better than most German beers in a can over here!

Actually it was in MJ's segment on Bamberg/Franconia... maybe Coburg? They weren't using wooden kettles, but the direct-fired rocks picked up smoke from the wood, and apparently gave it a little Rauch flavour. Unfortunately I've never tried one.

Hey Derek, so SB was also made in Bamberg, cool.

Steinbier to me has a bit of heavily caramelized flavor rather than the directly smoked-malt flavor of Rauchbier, which seems very different. Raftman has some smoked whisky malt in it which is something different again.

Of course the regional origins of 'smoky' styles could be quite varied (who can say for sure) and the modern example "Rauchenfelser Steinbier" is/was from Marktoberdorf. Earlier brewing technology might have put these historical syles all over the place presumably and who can say where they came from.

My impression of the MJ segment was they were not making the beer style in the precise method it would have been centuries ago but that they were emulating the incidental effects of using hot rocks to boil the beer, which of course today is no longer necessary - YMMV. It is a good drinking beer at any rate! If I had one I would share it.

[Derek]

Not to be a PITA but Steinbeer is not a style associated with smoked beer from Bamberg, but rather is a beer scorched with red hot stones - and comes from around Marktoberdorf which is very many train stops away.

The ancient technique was used to boil wort in wooden "kettles" which cannot be heated directly by fire. Rauchenfelser Steinbier (Br. Joseph Sailer) was a decent example of this rare style, if it still exists.

Köstritzer rocks regardless, better than most German beers in a can over here!

Actually it was in MJ's segment on Bamberg/Franconia... maybe Coburg? They weren't using wooden kettles, but the direct-fired rocks picked up smoke from the wood, and apparently gave it a little Rauch flavour. Unfortunately I've never tried one.

Hey Derek, so SB was also made in Bamberg, cool.

Steinbier to me has a bit of heavily caramelized flavor rather than the directly smoked-malt flavor of Rauchbier, which seems very different. Raftman has some smoked whisky malt in it which is something different again.

Of course the regional origins of 'smoky' styles could be quite varied (who can say for sure) and the modern example "Rauchenfelser Steinbier" is/was from Marktoberdorf. Earlier brewing technology might have put these historical syles all over the place presumably and who can say where they came from.

My impression of the MJ segment was they were not making the beer style in the precise method it would have been centuries ago but that they were emulating the incidental effects of using hot rocks to boil the beer, which of course today is no longer necessary - YMMV. It is a good drinking beer at any rate! If I had one I would share it.

Well it wasn't right in Bamberg, but relatively close. They were probably cutting down the same trees.