State of Micros in Oregon

[shintriad]

I'm in full agreement that our legal, commercial and demographic situation has put us decades behind the U.S. in terms of innovation and quality. With several exceptions, our macros are dull as dishwater -- literally, in Steelback's case.

Ontario's market simply isn't friendly to the beer-geek populace, which resides entirely on this board and on the estimable RateBeer.com. Speaking of which, let's look at the top ten rated beers from each respective region for a quick, unscientific, yet extremely scientific comparison:

A TALE OF TWO O-STARTING-WITH REGIONS (catchy!)

Ontario:
Denisons Weissbier 3.99
Scotch Irish Major Misconduct 3.81
Scotch Irish Corporal Punishment 3.73
Wellington Imperial Stout 3.7
Scotch Irish Black Irish Plain Porter 3.7
Scotch Irish Sgt. Majors IPA 3.63
Denisons Dunkel 3.62
Black Oak Nutcracker 3.61
Mill Street Tankhouse Pale Ale 3.6
Mill Street Balzacs Coffee Porter 3.57

Oregon:
Hair of the Dog Dave 4.28
Hair of the Dog Adam 4.11
Hair of the Dog Fred from the Wood 4.11
Full Sail Old Boardhead Barleywine 4.08
Hawks D.M.s Imperial Stout 4.04
Full Sail Imperial Porter Bourbon Barrel Aged 4.01
Hair of the Dog Doggie Claws 2003-04 3.99
Rogue Imperial Stout 3.99
Wild Duck Old Gnarley Head Barley Wine 3.99
Widmer Brothers KGB Russian Imperial Stout 3.98

Looks like we're getting smoked like Aecht Schlenkerla up in this mofo! As you can see, our best beer is roughly comparable to their 7, 8 and 9. Okay, let's ignore the fact that their #1 is discontinued and about 14 out of 10 are these "Hair of the Dog" things. Let's look at the also-rans:

The bottom beers in our Top 100 are all just a whisker above 3/5, culminating in the archtypical Muskoka Cream at 3.03. Yawn. Meanwhile, a total of six voters saw it fit to give Oregon's #100, the (retired) Wild Duck Hopzilla, a respectable 3.52. Yup, another much-maligned tongue-burning double IPA, at 100 IBU. But, hey, how come you never see any Ontario beers even attempting something in this style? Where the hell's our Imperials, double IPAs, cream stouts, schwartzbiers, barley wines, and so on?

My guess is, we just don't have that boisterous American character that demands "more" -- more flavour, more ingredients, more alcohol, more balls. Canadians are content to perpetually sip pansybrau. Well, so our brewers, bar owners and retailers seem to think, at least!

[GregClow]

But, hey, how come you never see any Ontario beers even attempting something in this style? Where the hell's our Imperials, double IPAs, cream stouts, schwartzbiers, barley wines, and so on?

Uh... the Ontario Top 10 that you posted includes an excellent Imperial Stout, and four other beers (the Tankhouse and three of the Scotch Irish beers) that have hopping levels that I'd say are are equal to or higher than most well-regarded American Pale Ales.

That's not to say that I disagree with your conclusion that Ontario breweries as a whole are more conservative than many American micros. But claiming that there are no breweries in Ontario making interesting or adventurous beer is a little short-sighted.

[JerCraigs]

Shintriad, Without really disagreeing with you I'd also point out a couple things.

- The Oregon market is more mature, and as a dominant hop growing region they tend towards hoppy beers, which tend to do well with beer geeks/ratebeer.
- Ontario Ratebeerians are notoriously hard on our own local beers. Look at the Wellington Imperial Stout for example, sort the ratings by highest ratings and the top ratings are mostly out of province raters.

I had other points but its past my bedtime. Cheers.

[shintriad]

Good points. Personally, I'd like to see more local brewers import some of the more exotic hops from our new arch-rivals in the northwest U.S. and use them. Hey, a guy can dream, can't he?

[old faithful]

If you look at classic beer regions, their beers are not, in general, highly assertive examples of the styles. In the U.K. the norm is draught lager and the bitters (holding maybe 20% of the market). Of those bitters, most are low gravity (relatively), well-balanced beers. Sure there is the odd high alcohol specialty but there are not that many of them. Some have gone the way of the dodo, e.g. Russian Imperial Stout from Courage (which was possibly the best bottle of beer in the world at the time). Try finding Whitbread's pale barley wine (Gold Label) in London. The reason beer is a deep-rooted tradition is partly historical/agricultural but also the beers are well-balanced. Muskoka Cream Ale would be considered an excellent beer by U.K. standards, one of the leading beer cultures in the world. In Germany in it is the same story, most beer is 5% bottom-fermented with a sprinkling of higher gravity bocks and weizens. In Czechoslovakia, it is mostly the famed lager with a few of those garnet beers and maybe the odd 7% porter. I think most beer consumers don't want the tongue burners or beers highly flavoured with very assertive Cascade hops with their grapefruit pith-like taste. Hair of the Dog Fred is a fine beer but it is a specialty item even in Portland - and we do have at least one beer in that style here, the barley wine from Tankhouse which weighed in at about 12%, I understand (I haven't had the chance to drink it it ). We may not have a black beer (actually I think we do, the dark beer from Great Lakes Brewing and it is pretty good) but we have excellent pale and dark lagers, wheat beers, smoked beers, brown ales, stouts and some IPA/Pale Ales that are very assertive such as Scotch-Irish's beers. So we have an excellent range dotted by a number of specialties. The main difference from Oregon is most are not as in your face as that State's most individualistic examples, but not everyone wants that (e.g. for Imperial Stout I find Wellington's plenty characterful and strong for me) and as I say in the true beer cultures most beer is not of that style; even if it was at one point (possibly Guinness) it changed to meet the demands of the market. Another factor is we have a number of strong imports (those strong Polish beers, many Belgians, the Quebec Unibroue beers) so that part of the market is serviced that way; in Oregon imports were not much of a factor due (I think) to the distance to bring them in and local inventiveness to be sure. The scores shown are interesting but I am not sure these numbers really denote any lesser quality here than there. There is a tendency I think to score a more assertive or higher alcohol taste higher than a less assertive or weaker beer but that does not mean the higher-score beers are better. Last night I opened a Liberty Ale and it was good but I thought to myself, this is like 90% of the ales I had in Oregon recently. Maybe that is, or will become an established regional taste, due perhaps, as some have pointed out, to the nearby hop fields and an understandable desire to boost the local economy. I think our range of flavours is more calculated over the long run to develop a long-lasting (i.e., less gimmicky or quirky) beer culture. To the degree we lack stronger domestic beers I believe regulatory issues are involved, e.g., I think the brewers have to pay a fee for each brand sold at Beer Store so they tend not to pay it when they are not sure it will sell as well as a 5% abv beer.

Gary

[shintriad]

Don't get me wrong: Bashing my own beloved province in the name of U.S. boosterism is not something I do lightly. But unfortunately, the pattern we're seeing in our artificial Oregontario rivalry is one that pops up in side-by-side comparisons with many states, from Alaska to Colorado to Indiana to Maine.

I have a preference for darker, sweeter beers, so it pains me to see how many fine Scotch ales, cream stouts, barleywines, Imperials, Abbey beers, fruit beers, Baltic porters, etc., are coming out of the States while we have such a conservative climate here. Sure, we have several great examples of many styles, and the top ten list I reproduced confirms that. I enjoy the odd Wellington Imperial myself (I rated it .8 higher than its average) but beyond that we don't have an overwhelming amount of choice in the Imperial bracket (we have no Double IPAs for instance, although that is a distinctly Northwestern style, largely thanks to Rogue's contributions).

Gary rightly pointed out that the Beer Store shelving fees keep experimentation at a minimum. And while our LCBO imports allow for some more variety, I'm under the impression it's easier for Americans to order exotic beers themselves. There are many well-designed websites where our neighbours can choose from a huge selection of craft beers at decent prices, while we're stuck musing over an endless selection of corn-tastic pale lagers from the former Soviet Union.

Whether Oregon's beers are "better" is mostly a matter of taste. But I can't help but be impressed and more than a little jealous at their variety.

[inertiaboy]

Whether Oregon's beers are "better" is mostly a matter of taste. But I can't help but be impressed and more than a little jealous at their variety.

I definitely agree with this. For me, Oregon has us beat hands down on two things:

1) depth of offering: Ontario has great examples of many styles, but Oregon has multiple examples, often at the same pub. I'd like to put this down to the maturity of the market, but I think it's hard to measure the maturity when regulations do so much to stunt growth

2) accessibility: because of the duopoly for sales and distribution, I simply cannot get some of our great beers easily. I could walk into a grocery store in Portland and pull singles from multiple 6-packs at 8am and nobody blinked twice. I'd love to try the cherry stout from Black Oak, but it requires significant effort to get it. it makes it difficult to grow an industry when the key drivers of growth (i.e. those who want to casually try new beers and move away from the mainstream) can't easily access the product

To give people perspective on attitudes in Portland, I love telling about the sports bar at the Marriott where I was staying. The decor would not be out of place in Toronto, but the big difference was the tap line-up: Bud, Bud Light, and 22 excellent locally-crafted products.

[burgermeister]

If you really want to compare the difference between Oregon and Ontario, make plans to go the the Oregon Brewers Festival in late July. They typically have between 70 to 80 breweries represented each of which are allowed to bring only one "festival" beer. No national or regional breweries are allowed - small guys only, micro's and brew pubs. The Brick for example would be to large to participate, SteamWhistle would be about the upper limit I think. Tremendous variety, lots of good and pleanty of really bad beer to try. $2.00 to get in and $1.00 per 6 oz sample. The place has always been packed - amazing how many beer geeks will fit into one large tent.

[old faithful]

Many good points made but we have to remember the U.S. is, all things considered, a much bigger market than ours here. Not just that, it is a more mobile society than Canada's, so trends get picked up faster than here. I would like to see more than one Imperial Stout here but we do have Samuel Smith's, we have had Victory's (or it is available as a private import I believe), we will have Lion Stout from Malaysia soon (can't wait for that one), and there are others that are similar in style (Dragon Stout and the other black beers from the Caribbean). I admire the stylistic diversity in the States, e.g. I go ga-ga at Beers of the World in Rochester or Premier in Amherst, NY, but we have very good beers here, in fact, we have a much bigger selection than most rural or small town areas in the U.S. (the Northwest being a partial exception). But sure we should have a free market in beer in this Province, I support that fully.

Gary

[mds]

we have had Victory's (or it is available as a private import I believe)
Gary

What ever happened to the Victory Storm King? Will it be in a seasonal release again or is Victory done with us?

[PRMason]

I am a huge Pacific Northwest fan. This is especially true of Portland and Seattle. Sure, their beers are very, shall we say, "hop-driven" but this is to be expected from a relatively young industry looking to establish a style for itself. The proximity to the hop fields of Yakima and Willamette ( ya better pronounce it Will-AAA-met!) is also a factor in the hoppiness of their beers. Many countries that have hop growing regions find that their hoppiest beers are within reach of the hop fields ( Kent and Worcester in the U.K. and Pilsen in Czech Rep. come to mind).
Ontario micros are in their infancy for the most part. We are still trying to find a style, or type of beer that will mark us as a fine beer producing region. Yes, we tend to err on the conservative side, but that is largely due to the fact that the consumer base has not yet reached the level of sophistication required to appreciate "different" beers.(Bartowellers and RateBeerians excepted of course!) . The reason Sgt. Major's IPA exists is because a brewer from a long established Ontario micro told me that "Ontario beer drinkers don't like bitter beers". So I immediately went to see Bill Rea at the Winking Judge and asked him what kind of beer he would be able to sell. I expected it to be a one off brew. In fact I told Bill that he may have to buy it all! I got lucky and the beer found a tiny niche that was under-serviced in Ontario. My hope is that in time, the palate of the adventurous consumer will develop and so will the range of beers that can be viably produced here.
Oh, and as for the U.K hop thing... many of the newest award winning beers in the U.K, including most of the new-style "golden ales' are now using American hop varieties. Jeffery Hudson's Bitter is a fine example of English brewed low gravity ale with Cascade hops all over it. I spoke to many brewers on my most recent trip in 2002 and found many small scale breweries looking into Chinook, cascade, Tomahawk, Centennial etc. because they felt trapped by tradition. There are only so many ingredients you can use in traditional brewing to impart distinct flavours to your beers. Malts, in different combinations are often used as are oats, rye and wheat. Most brewers don't tamper with their yeast as this imparts the house character of their ales. This really only leaves hops. I believe that the majority of U.K. brewers will always use their own hops, but good on those who also experiment with other varieties in order to offer something different to the punters.
Perry

[Jon Walker]

What ever happened to the Victory Storm King? Will it be in a seasonal release again or is Victory done with us?[/quote]

According to Peter at Esprit (I seem to recall) Victory have joined the long list of breweries unwilling to deal again with the LCBO and their nonsense.

As for Gary...Man, I admire your persistence and devotion to the local Ontario beers. This ongoing thread essentially grew out of your belief that Ontario would soon develop as vibrant, popular and successful a craft brewing industry as the current one in Oregon, perhaps better. Whether you love hops or not is entirely besides the point, this province is miles behind Oregon for all the reasons I (and others) have pointed out in previous posts. Fact of the matter is the beer "culture" in this province is sad when compared to Oregon, Washington, California, Idaho (believe it), B.C. , Michigan and countless other states, provinces and regions on this continent.

[old faithful]

Well, maybe, but I spent a weekend in Portland, tasted beers around town and attended a beer fest at which 50 brewers were present (and tasted 25 or 30 beers), so I got a decent exposure to their beers I think, and I think ours are, in general, better. I take Perry's point about the English using American hops - it is understandable they want to experiment but I don't think those beers will find a big sale, apart maybe from that golden style of beer which is becoming a summer specialty and probably needs colder service than the regular English beers. English top-fermented real ales (the best of them) are the best there is, you can't improve on them in my view, and they will remain I believe a mainstay of the English brewing scene for the ale part of it (less than 20% however of all beer sales today, lager has grown that much...). I think there is room for all kinds of brewers. I agree too we need to develop a regional profile, so far it hasn't emerged but even if that doesn't happen our beers are good as they are (and have improved a lot over 20 years). I don't think creating more hop monsters will expand the public demand for beer in general. There is a niche to fill there and I admire the people who fill it but I think the profile of, say Muskoka Cream Ale, or Upper Canada Dark Ale, is more likely to sell to a broader market. This doesn't mean certain niches can't grow and be profitable and I stress that. The other thing is drinkability can be stymied by too assertive a palate; I'd rather see our brewers selling at the bar in multiple units rather than one pint or a half pint of a (say) Hair of the Dog-type beer.

The other thing too is things from far away always seem better, I fall prey to that myself on occasion, it is the lure of the different..

Gary

[Rob Creighton]

Have to agree with Gary here but aside from just Ontario beers as a comparison. Widmer beers at the brewery sitting with the brewers just were not very good (regardless of how much they sell). I can almost always find a comfort zone in any American micro with one of their products but Widmer hit me again and again with poorly made beer - I was extremely disappointed.

Bridgeport and Pelican was the best I tried in Oregon and I know I would gravitate to them if I lived there. Portland brewery had some really funky flavours that a lot of us sort of looked at each other and wondered about. Strangely enough, I didn't drink any Rogue beers when there but went on a couple of bar hopping sprees with the guys from Rogue. Go figure.

[A]

I will concede one point, however - I can see how, living in a great US beer town, one might get sick of cascade hoppy pale ales.