The Bar Towel

Cass wrote: But we don't have any brewpubs anyway so who knows!

Brewpubs have been legislated against in Ontario on an economic basis. The number of people that have have lined up to lose money here is stunning. In the states, you can sell beer out the front door in bottles or growlers or kegs and create cashflow. This has never been allowed in brewpubs in Ontario.

We can now have a brewery licence and sell through an adjacent store to a tied pub that can also sell your product but this is a recent change and it is amazing to see how slow we are to take advantage of this. The brewing will is here but the economic common sense is slow to follow.

Rob Creighton wrote:In the states, you can sell beer out the front door in bottles or growlers or kegs and create cashflow. This has never been allowed in brewpubs in Ontario.

How about cans? Ontario would really like cans from brewpubs I bet you, because the LCBO illuminati really want to rescue the planet from terrible destruction caused by glass bottles.

I've heard brown bottles are twice as deadly as other kinds.

pootz wrote:

GregClow wrote:

pootz wrote:Hmmmmmm that's 2 new start ups in GTA

I'm gapping out here - what was the other one?

I've heard some not so positive things about the quality of Les 3 Brasseurs beer, although if they hire a decent brewer for the Toronto location, maybe we'll get lucky.

Joseph Bloor...which has dropped out of the scuttlebut circuit...are they still a go?

As for L3B..if this is the same outfit that brews the stuff they sell in their upscale Montreal restaurant, it's nothing special...not bad ...just nothing outstanding...it's a brew pub franchise from Europe...kinda like Gordon Beirsch but with tame French ales.

I think they're lagers. Even their wit was a lager IMO. The sulfury off flavours gave it away- needed more lagering.

Gordon Biersh brewed very good lagers. I was sad to see them go.

My take on Les 3 Brasseurs is the beers can vary a bit depending on the restaurant, which is no surprise with craft brewing, and overall the quality is very good.

The chain started in Lille in the far north of France. This is beer country, near the border (or former border) with Belgium.

One of the principals was from the family which owned Pelforth of Lille which is now part of Heineken.

The idea was to brew beers traditional to French Flanders. When I visited the original Lille outlet (still going strong) in the early 90's, the range was a strongish brown ale (the French "brune" type, an artisanal version of Pelforth Brune you might say), a biere blanche and an amber beer. All were excellent and distinctive. White beers were traditional in the area (especially in Cambrai) until WW I and this was a revival, following the steps of some of the French Flanders microbrewers and of course the Belgian white beer brewers. The amber was good too, a cross between English and Belgian styles to my taste.

The chain expanded mainly in France but also elsewhere and now has 3 restaurants in Montreal. I like the food, it has elements of regular French bistro and some dishes from Flanders and Alsace (e.g. the pizza-type flammenkueche). In Montreal they've adapted the menu somewhat to the local scene but it still has a French flavour very much.

The beers in Montreal are good but not quite as good as I recalled in France. In Montreal, there is also a blonde ale and they offer (as no doubt in France) seasonal specialties. A Christmas version of the amber I had at the Ste. Catherine St. outlet last year was excellent. So was the brown beer and the blanche. I did not like the regular amber as much. I don't know how the beers are brewed exactly. The ambers seemed to have a strong yeasty edge (in the chalky, bready way some Belgian beers have) even though they are clear. The beers (in any location I've been in) are certainly not mass-market in taste, they are very much craft beers in every sense.

I think this establishment will be good for the beer scene in Toronto. I honestly believe that the more places there are offering good beer and related cuisines, the better off all will be including existing restaurants and brewers. I hope Gordon Biersch comes back to the GTA, they do make excellent beers and in the right location they would do very well.

Gary

I just hope they don't do the four regular beers they do now in Montreal. Quite frankly I find them boring. Shocking I know!

I'd like some creativity like what Beer Works does in Boston & Salem. Actually screw Les 3 Brasseurs, I want a Beer Works here in Toronto!

lister wrote:I just hope they don't do the four regular beers they do now in Montreal. Quite frankly I find them boring. Shocking I know!

I'd like some creativity like what Beer Works does in Boston & Salem. Actually screw Les 3 Brasseurs, I want a Beer Works here in Toronto!

There's room for any brewpub in Toronto. If I were you guys I'd stop whining about good things coming to your town before they make it there just because it could be better for your own personal selective taste buds. Even amongst this group, there is a huge range of preferences. If Les Trois Brasseurs can make it here, perhaps we'll see a few more brewpubs sprout in this greatly underserviced 3 million person city. It's a crying shame that I can go to any town with 15000 people or more on the south shore of Lake Superior and find a brewpub and that we don't have enough culture here to rightfully support more than one here with 3 million strong.

dhurtubise wrote:There's room for any brewpub in Toronto. If I were you guys I'd stop whining about good things coming to your town before they make it there just because it could be better for your own personal selective taste buds. Even amongst this group, there is a huge range of preferences. If Les Trois Brasseurs can make it here, perhaps we'll see a few more brewpubs sprout in this greatly underserviced 3 million person city. It's a crying shame that I can go to any town with 15000 people or more on the south shore of Lake Superior and find a brewpub and that we don't have enough culture here to rightfully support more than one here with 3 million strong.

While the second half of that statement is true, and I definitely think we should reserve judgment until actually trying the stuff, I heartily disagree with the idea that we should just accept any old brewpub that comes along.

I would much prefer supporting a local brewery pumping out good beer (eg. Denisons, Black Oak, Mill St.) at a decent pub than encourage a brewpub brewing something average or mediocre. The goal is good locally produced beer, not a brewpub for the sake of a brewpub.

Not to mention the fact that we do have at least one decent "brewpub" in the Granite even if they aren't legally a brewpub any more. I am not sure why we are so quick to cross them off the list around here just because they found a way to expand within the regs... (I myself have done this as well I'm sure)

JerCraigs wrote:

dhurtubise wrote:There's room for any brewpub in Toronto. If I were you guys I'd stop whining about good things coming to your town before they make it there just because it could be better for your own personal selective taste buds. Even amongst this group, there is a huge range of preferences. If Les Trois Brasseurs can make it here, perhaps we'll see a few more brewpubs sprout in this greatly underserviced 3 million person city. It's a crying shame that I can go to any town with 15000 people or more on the south shore of Lake Superior and find a brewpub and that we don't have enough culture here to rightfully support more than one here with 3 million strong.

While the second half of that statement is true, and I definitely think we should reserve judgment until actually trying the stuff, I heartily disagree with the idea that we should just accept any old brewpub that comes along.

I would much prefer supporting a local brewery pumping out good beer (eg. Denisons, Black Oak, Mill St.) at a decent pub than encourage a brewpub brewing something average or mediocre. The goal is good locally produced beer, not a brewpub for the sake of a brewpub.

Not to mention the fact that we do have at least one decent "brewpub" in the Granite even if they aren't legally a brewpub any more. I am not sure why we are so quick to cross them off the list around here just because they found a way to expand within the regs... (I myself have done this as well I'm sure)

For one, we are not the only consumers of beer around here and Les Trois Brasseurs, although not brewing mindblowing beer, do make reasonable products. Compared with the alternative of having no brewpub to one that is pretty good, I'll choose the pretty good one.

Secondly, if what we want is a very creative and technically sound brewer to establish himself here, we have to understand that highly creative also usually means highly risky business and thus Toronto has to show that they can support at least one good brewpub before we are to expect someone to come in and risk his livelyhood over our meager reputation as a beer city.

Thirdly, although I fully support all of our microbrewers, supporting them or a brewpub should not be mutually exclusive events. I hope your world is not so black and white that you cannot see how the oportunities of supporrting both are real and everpresent.

Fourthly if you read my post carefully, I did not exclude granite, though had it remained a brewpub under our legal system, I am not sure they would still be alive, since as a city we are not all that thirsty for the house brews.

Let's not forget that not all brewers in Ontario debut with radical or earth-shattering brews. I can think of a couple off the top of my head that started with basic beers and developed more unique beers over time, likely fueled by the support they had from us and other beer drinkers.

The 3 Brasseurs are looking to hire a local brewer, and considering the state of brewpubs in this city we should applaud and support this. If I was opening a brewpub in Toronto I would be quite scared due to their history here.

dhurtubise wrote: For one, we are not the only consumers of beer around here and Les Trois Brasseurs, although not brewing mindblowing beer, do make reasonable products. Compared with the alternative of having no brewpub to one that is pretty good, I'll choose the pretty good one.

I don't disagree with that. Whether or not L3B qualifies as "pretty good" or not seems to be a matter of taste, and I have no opinion on them specifically since I have not as yet tried their beers.

dhurtubise wrote: supporting [microbrewers] or a brewpub should not be mutually exclusive events. I hope your world is not so black and white that you cannot see how the oportunities of supporting both are real and everpresent.

No not at all, but my point is that I would gladly support an excellent brewery (or brewpub) over a mediocre or just average brewpub (or brewery).

dhurtubise wrote: Secondly, if what we want is a very creative and technically sound brewer to establish himself here, we have to understand that highly creative also usually means highly risky business and thus Toronto has to show that they can support at least one good brewpub before we are to expect someone to come in and risk his livelyhood over our meager reputation as a beer city.

I agree with this as well, but this is not quite what you were saying before, your previous post implied (or perhaps I read into it, I don't know) that we should be cheering the arrival of "any brewpub", regardless of quality.

You are suggesting that we must support a good brewpub to get a great brewer (or at least a "creative and technically sound" one) but it feels like you are saying we should support one that is just average in the same way.

In the end I agree with your underlying point that we need to support brewers and specifically brewpubs if we want to get a great one in Toronto of the calibre of say some fo the Montreal ones (such as L'Amere A Boire or Cheval Blanc - I expect we can only dream of a Dieu du Ciel anytime soon!).

My main point, and one that I have heard others grumble about, is that by supporting brewers that are producing beers only marginally more adventurous than the mainstream, we don't encourage them to try the *really* adventurous things we see south of the border. We only need so many just ok beers, we need to support the great beers!

Anyways, we are just nitpicking each others posts at this point.

Cass wrote:Let's not forget that not all brewers in Ontario debut with radical or earth-shattering brews. I can think of a couple off the top of my head that started with basic beers and developed more unique beers over time, likely fueled by the support they had from us and other beer drinkers.

That is a good point Cass, but I think that the market has become saturated enough now that there is a need to accelerate the process - brewers need to be interesting faster.

JerCraigs wrote:That is a good point Cass, but I think that the market has become saturated enough now that there is a need to accelerate the process - brewers need to be interesting faster.

Just remember that they're opening up at Yonge & Dundas, which is:

1. A beer wasteland for selection - you have to walk up or down the street for a good beer bar.

2. One of Toronto's busiest tourist areas.

They will most certainly have to brew a basic lager to take care of the tourists. And if they'll probably add a brown ale and red ale to shake things up a bit, which will still be a step up for the area. I think the tourist trade is going to make or break the place, not brewing barley wines and saisons for beer geeks like us.

dhurtubise wrote:There's room for any brewpub in Toronto. If I were you guys I'd stop whining about good things coming to your town before they make it there just because it could be better for your own personal selective taste buds. Even amongst this group, there is a huge range of preferences.

Of course there's room! Giddyup! The more the merrier. Given my druthers however I'd rather have Beer Works here or if both were here I'd visit BW over L3B. How the heck is that whining? It's called a preference. I agree with everything Jer said. I've been to L3B twice at two different locations and BW three times at all three locations. Hands down the place that impressed me more is BW. The beer selection was by far better, the quality was better and there was interesting beers there. At L3B mixing liquer with the beers to create different flavours really doesn't work. The food too was far better at BW than L3B.

http://www.beerworks.net/html/menu_drink.html

As for Granite, I never discount that place. It's right around the corner! I love English style beers. Granite does an excellent job with them. However when I'm out and typically have 3-4+ beers I like to have variety and Granite doesn't offer up enough for me to go there more frequently than once a month or so.

All valid opinions, but I've been to 3 Brasseurs many times and having pondered beer for 30 years, can say they make exemplary craft beers which derive moreover from an old established beer region of Europe. That doesn't mean people have to like it, but (just my 2 cents) this is exactly what many craft beer fans are looking for.

Give them a chance, I doubt many will be disappointed. For those who demur, fine, and they have options as was stated, in the form of our increasingly diverse craft brewery scene, imports, etc.

Entretemps donnez-moi s.v.p. un chope de la bonne biere blanche!

Gary