The Bar Towel

I don't have a problem with the prices at Joe's, but I do feel the quality of the place has deteriorated in the last while. Particularly the bottled beer selection - it is getting much harder to find that gem that is not, or was not recently, available at the LCBO. Unless, as alluded to above, there is a "secret list" I'm not aware of!

We've been through this price discussion before, but I'll wade into the mire again.

Being in the heart of clubland, Joe no doubt has some pretty high rent and insurance rates to pay, which is why he needs to charge higher prices than, say, Ciro's. Also, with respect to pricing on LCBO listings, you have to remember that most punters aren't even remotely aware of the beer selection the LCBO carries, and so for them that Fuller's London Pride is a find, not a beer that costs x much more than it would at the Liquor Store.

As far as selection goes, Joe's is suffering for the same reason all Toronto beer bars are, namely because of a long drought in the consignment market and little interesting activity on the LCBO front. Things are better now with the latest Esprit order coming in, but these days, unless you're doing private orders -- which are a huge hassle for a licensee, especially one who is essentially a one man management operation -- the pickings are far scarcer than they were even a year or two ago.

What Joe provides is pretty much the only destination available for good beer within a broad swath of downtown, the new Fat Belgian and Amadeus excepted. And he's been doing it for a lot longer than Ciro's, Volo or beerbistro. 'Nuff respect.

A big thumbs up to Steve for his posting...frankly, gentlemen, most bars I tailk to would rather not have some bartowellers as patrons (some, not all) as it has been noted that many of you will sit around for hours taking up valuable table or bar space while nursing one or two brews...I'm not tarring everyone with the same brush as many of you are solid patrons, however, the fact remains that beer geeks do not have a good reputation in general with licensees in Toronto and many of these bars could care less whether you patronize them. Steve explains to you why Joe's prices are the way they are and it is a resonable explanation...if it's going to cut into your streetcar fair, please do patronize places like Ciro's as Frank offers a great selection, good prices and good food and if Lansdowne and Bloor are convenient for you, then it's a perfect fit. You'll also notice it's cheaper to park out there than in clubland! I supply Joe's yet I still pop in occasionally for an oyster fix and he always has some beer of mine available so it's always a good experience and I just plain like the ambience of the place.
We hope to have many more new and interesting offerrings for people like Joe's, beerbistro, Volo, Fat Belgian and others in the not too distant future as the pipeline has been dry for some time now.

Ahh, the perennial topic of "Holy Mark-up, Batman!!!"

While I won't descend to patronizing the financial status of everyone who cries "ripoff!" in some situations (it's sensible to just not buy ripoffs), I think it's obvious that these places HAVE to sell really overpriced Sierra Nevada and Fullers Stout, in order to stock weird wonderful things like Rochefort 6 and Cantillon.

So in essence... we penniless, whiny, irritating & space-hogging beer geeks may look upon those absurdly pricy pints of Hacker-Pschorr as providing a SUBSIDY toward more worthwhile things we really enjoy.

I can't imagine these bars even breaking even by selling only Trappist ales, so let's give them a break here. I love to have these bars around & will support their cause.

And while it is fun to ignore pushy waitstaff who bulldoze patrons away for the next 'sitting' (really not my problem) let us all at least be reasonably fair about ordering more stuff when we want to chat.

midlife crisis wrote:I don't have a problem with the prices at Joe's, but I do feel the quality of the place has deteriorated in the last while. Particularly the bottled beer selection - it is getting much harder to find that gem that is not, or was not recently, available at the LCBO. Unless, as alluded to above, there is a "secret list" I'm not aware of!

Any perceived reduction in quality I assume is in reference to less rarities on the list than there once was. I think that the quality of Joe's is fantastic as always, great food and great beer! We need to be careful not to unintentionally slag places just because they don't always have that new and exciting brew. No secret list, just check the board that is up in plain view.

Steve Beaumont wrote: Being in the heart of clubland, Joe no doubt has some pretty high rent and insurance rates to pay...that most punters aren't even remotely aware of the beer selection the LCBO carries, and so for them that Fuller's London Pride is a find, not a beer that costs x much more than it would at the Liquor Store.

Thanks for the good point Steve. As fairly dedicated beer enthusiasts it can be easy to forget that not everyone is as hardcore as we are. A successful beer business needs to cater to a fairly wide range of people to make money. Particularly in Toronto/Ontario.

Steve Beaumont wrote: As far as selection goes, Joe's is suffering for the same reason all Toronto beer bars are, namely because of a long drought in the consignment market and little interesting activity on the LCBO front. Things are better now with the latest Esprit order coming in, but these days, unless you're doing private orders -- which are a huge hassle for a licensee, especially one who is essentially a one man management operation -- the pickings are far scarcer than they were even a year or two ago.

Another good point, but in that case we as consumers are essentially stuck waiting for action from the LCBO or an agent, who are in turn dependant on suppliers, profitability and other market forces. Bartowelers have shown a willingness to a) take on that hassle themselves in terms of organizing group orders and b) Pay a premium for top notch imports such as the Great Divide or Cantillon orders (ignoring the fact that this thread started because of price complaints ).

I know this is an idealistic statement, but if the private order system is flawed and enough people need it to aquire the products they want, then eventually critical mass will be reached to affect change in the system. If for instance dealing with lab fees is a stumbling block, then it is incumbent on the LCBO to fix that, and on licensees/agents/etc. to demand the changes required for their businesses.

Esprit wrote: frankly, gentlemen, most bars I tailk to would rather not have some bartowellers as patrons (some, not all) as it has been noted that many of you will sit around for hours taking up valuable table or bar space while nursing one or two brews...I'm not tarring everyone with the same brush as many of you are solid patrons, however, the fact remains that beer geeks do not have a good reputation in general with licensees in Toronto and many of these bars could care less whether you patronize them.

If someone is being rude, boorish, or otherwise unpleasant that is unfortunate. Particularly when they choose to do so in a public arena. "Beer geeks" are of course just as susceptible to this as anyone else particulary given the influence of alcohol. Its unfortunate that some who identify themselves as Bartowelers, Ratebeerians, or "beer geeks" tarnish the collective reputation of others but it sounds like the bigger problem is with drunken louts or otherwise rude people, not "beer geeks". Personally I would appreciate being told if I am ever falling into that category.

I know as a starving student lately I am conscious of taking up table space on a busy night with my pennies, but as was the case this summer I often showed up with 5+ spendier friends, or splurge another nights, so perhaps a longer term view is appropriate in some cases. That said, if some consistently does the same thing, that is another story.

Peter, you say you are "not tarring everyone with the same brush", yet you often do so in your posts (perhaps its unintentional, or just poorly thought out) and then shake your head in confusion when it inspires umbrage in response. I have happily referred people to you or establishments that sell your products countless times, so it is frustrating to hear comments that are disrespectful to your target market - even if you apparently don't believe that that is who you are talking about...

Anyways, to be remotely on topic, I think it is important as members of the beer community to be respectful and mindful of the costs, obstacles and effort required to provide products and services to us, but I also do not think it is unreasonable to have high standards and expectations.

End rant.

While I may be a newbie on this site I have lived in Ontario my entire life and am neither a stranger to Toronto nor the workings of the LCBO... Some of the posts in this thread make me wonder if everyone is aware of the way the LCBO operates....? The complaints about over inflated beer prices of selection available at the LCBO is no different than wine prices in restaurants and bars. You or I can go into the LCBO and buy a case of wine, beer, scotch, etc. for the same price as a bar owner i.e. retail cost. They don't get a deal for buying in bulk so yes you may be able to get a beer in the LCBO for $5.00 and the same beer in the bar for $9.00 but from that $4.00 the bar has to cover overhead expenses, pick up the slack on less popular but still sought after beer and generally try to help make ends meet...

I am also going to chime in on an earlier post regarding 'beer geeks' as patrons however I will use far nicer language than perhaps you deserve. Better yet I will leave it at this. I would love to have a job where I could tell the end consumer of my product that a good number of them are not welcome in the establishments they frequent to by my product. You might want to consider your audience and not post about 'beer geeks' in a forum populated by them. I will certainly think twice before purchasing anything ordered through you as I can find more than enough other beer that I enjoy and still contribute money to great places like Smokeless and Volo.

"Esprit", are you having a couple of bad days? Twice you have referred to Bar Towellers and their "streetcar fare" and generally spoken to or about all of us with a certain tone of derision.

I don't know you, you don't know me but I can assure you I don't ride the streetcar. As a salesperson of fine brews I would expect that your tone would be considerably different but maybe business is either too good or too bad for you to care.

I'm not looking to flame war with you here but I can tell that I am not the only one taking exception.

All the best.

Any perceived reduction in quality I assume is in reference to less rarities on the list than there once was. I think that the quality of Joe's is fantastic as always, great food and great beer! We need to be careful not to unintentionally slag places just because they don't always have that new and exciting brew. No secret list, just check the board that is up in plain view.

I'm sorry to be negative, but Joe's is a shadow of it's former self (say 3-4 years ago) in all respects, including music, staff, beer selection and food. It is still a better than average destination, to be sure, and an oasis in that part of the downtown area, but far from the charming, quirky, funky and fantastic place it was under the original Joe. Volo has a far superior bottle selection (at least based on a visit about four weeks ago). In my opinion, anyway.

Peter from Esprit....

He's Bartowel's equivalent to "House"...minus the genius part.

Peter has always posted irreverently on this site. It's pretty evident that he thinks we apparently loutish, subway riding, tightwad beer geeks are irrelevant to his business. I for one feel he's entitled to his opinion. I don't however feel he's entitled to our patronage. Call me crazy but I'm not much interested in supporting an enterprise whose owner looks down on me for my business, however modest, or generalizes a group of people so distastefully.


And if there are bar owners who really don't want our business let them post that here themselves...I'm sure we'll happily oblige.

Jon Walker wrote:Peter from Esprit....

He's Bartowel's equivalent to "House"...minus the genius part.

Peter has always posted irreverently on this site. It's pretty evident that he thinks we apparently loutish, subway riding, tightwad beer geeks are irrelevant to his business. I for one feel he's entitled to his opinion. I don't however feel he's entitled to our patronage. Call me crazy but I'm not much interested in supporting an enterprise whose owner looks down on me for my business, however modest, or generalizes a group of people so distastefully.


And if there are bar owners who really don't want our business let them post that here themselves...I'm sure we'll happily oblige.

here here.
couldn't have said it better myself.

Well anyway what the f-k does he know, right?

Let it bounce.

Man, I feel like the Pope today. I will in future restrict myself to posts about product availability and new releases and cease to post any personal comments or opinions on this forum...that should keep those who are easily offended happy and it will frankly save me a lot of time and effort as well as end this beer jihad...I've always enjoyed participating in this forum and have often enjoyed being provocative in many of my guises (I'm more than just rabbit)...bye, bye, I'm done here! Those of you who appreciate our offerrings will no doubt continue to patronize us either through LCBO retail purchases or through purchases at bars and restaurants around the city. I'm taking my ball and going home cause some of you guys are just no fun.

Infidel! Blasphemer!

...actually, I for one am not hugely offended by Esprit's comments -- hell, I really do visit LCBOs on the basis of whether I can get there by transit or not, then end up lugging a gym bag full of clanking bottles all the way home.

But I blame the ghetto-ness of that scenario less on my own predicament (being a car-free beer fan in an urban area) than on the pathetic reality of Ontario's liquor situation. There's no such thing as a corner store where one can easily pick up a sixer on a Sunday night, along with some beef jerky and maybe the shopkeeper's money (or his life).

Perhaps the implications were off the mark -- us broke-ass "beer geeks" are willing to spend top dollar on super-premium microbrews, and we'll even cross the dreaded U.S. border to supplement this habit. Those "buck-a-beer" ads (LAAKE-POOOORRT!) are not targeting us, but rather blue-collar and/or brain-dead "inebriation geeks."

And while it might be fair to say that, as a collective, we amount to chump change in the blinkered eyes of the LCBO, even a D-minus economics student could see how that figure could be significantly skewed upwards.

To wit: Remember that Dogfish Head stuff we had before? Know what would have happened if they'd brought in four times as much, charging 50% more per bottle? My presumption is those sons of whores would've pulled in six times as much cash.

Now, I appreciate that this particular example may be unrealistic or untenable, but you can see what I'm getting at here.

Sure, but none of that excuses Peter for slagging his customers (humourously or not), then bitching when people get offended.

-Josh