Is that an official pint?

[Jon Walker]

There would be a vastly simpler way to regulate and enforce serving size in Ontario for the public interest. As part of licensing one of the requirements placed on bar/restaurant owners should be clearly stating, both in the menu and at the bar, the size of the serving (metric and imperial) for each product. This way there's no need for standardized glasses, picking metric or imperial, specialized measure markings on the glassware, etc... Enforcement would be straight forward...any inspector with a 20oz measuring cup could enter an establishment, order a drink and verify that the drink served matched the volume that was listed in the menu. Fines for those who short pour.

Bear in mind, this isn't only an issue that involves beer. How many times have you been at a restaurant/bar and ordered a wine by the glass only to be confused by the size, shape and ultimate value of what arrives? Standardized glassware wouldn't work here either but clearer menu information would better inform the buyer if that $8 glass of merlot is as good a value if they're only serving 4oz instead of 6 or 8.

[Bobbyok]

And would bar owners REALLY cheat with improperly lined glsasware, at risk of their license? I think the LLBO would have them by the sack.

And I'm pretty sure Ontario-brew branded glassware in standard sizes would turn up pretty quick to assist bar owners, thus enforcing the standard.

Steve captures my thoughts on your post, but as for the first point above, you're already claiming the need for regulated glassware because bar owners are cheating. If they're already trying to cheat you somehow, why would they stop trying? And introducing exemptions from the standard would pretty quickly result in loopholes all over the place - or people trying to find those loopholes.

Theoretically it sounds like a fine idea but there is no practical means of regulating and more importantly, enforcing such regulation. If you're really that worried about how much you're getting in your glass, double check what sizes the bar offers on the menu and complain if you think you're getting shorted. If you can order 12 oz, ask for it, and only get 8, complain. However, complaining your glass doesn't hold a pint when your bar doesn't intend to serve pints is pretty silly.

[Kel Varnsen]

I don't think that legislating pint sizes is something our government should be doing.
Establishments are going to sell different sizes. It is up to us, the consumer, to ensure that we are getting value for our dollar. We need to hold establishments accountable.
If a place is advertising a pint of "brand x" then at that point, we need to make sure it is an actual pint, and not some 350 ml glass.
However, if we go to a bar and ask for a pint of "brand x", well we should just assume that it will be a larger size.

I don't think they should necessarily legislate pint glass sizes but I think it would be great if they made a law required pubs and bars to tell you exactly how much you are getting. I mean enforcing that regulation would be a way better use of the AGCO’s time than something like trying to stop the sale of that Boxer beer for associating with sports or whatever that was mentioned in that other thread. At least for once it would be a case of the government actually looking out for the general public.

[icemachine]

Seriously, you want your provincial government to regulate glassware? And in metric, when the vast majority of places use either US or Imperial ounces? The mind boggles...

I would prefer metric measurements at this point, simply because nowhere I have been specifies whether they are using US or Imperial measurements when they list ounces.

[Belgian]

And would bar owners REALLY cheat with improperly lined glsasware, at risk of their license? I think the LLBO would have them by the sack.

And I'm pretty sure Ontario-brew branded glassware in standard sizes would turn up pretty quick to assist bar owners, thus enforcing the standard.

Steve captures my thoughts on your post, but as for the first point above, you're already claiming the need for regulated glassware because bar owners are cheating. If they're already trying to cheat you somehow, why would they stop trying? And introducing exemptions from the standard would pretty quickly result in loopholes all over the place - or people trying to find those loopholes.

Theoretically it sounds like a fine idea but there is no practical means of regulating and more importantly, enforcing such regulation. If you're really that worried about how much you're getting in your glass, double check what sizes the bar offers on the menu and complain if you think you're getting shorted. If you can order 12 oz, ask for it, and only get 8, complain. However, complaining your glass doesn't hold a pint when your bar doesn't intend to serve pints is pretty silly.

Agreed on the latter but...
ALL we're REALLY talking about is regulating the "Pint" as something the CUSTOMER can prove.

All hyperventilating aside. The lack of standard pint sizing is the ONLY problem. I don't see an enforced Pint affecting the importation of Orval, or the price of chickens, or anything else. It's a basic flaw in consumer protection that needs to be fixed.

But all your notes will help me with a pretty good letter!

[Belgian]

Bear in mind, this isn't only an issue that involves beer. How many times have you been at a restaurant/bar and ordered a wine by the glass only to be confused by the size, shape and ultimate value of what arrives? Standardized glassware wouldn't work here either but clearer menu information would better inform the buyer if that $8 glass of merlot is as good a value if they're only serving 4oz instead of 6 or 8.

Confusingly, the trend of very large-bowled wine glasses have resulted in larger servings of wine - but customers who don't understand this often think they are not getting enough!

However what you say is correct - for the dear price of wine by the glass, the pours (say 125ml, should = one-sixth bottle) sometimes DO seem smaller than they do at home!! How to prevent that ripped-off feeling?

I'm pretty sure that in Germany (besides the ubiquitous line-marked beer glassware) I have seen volume markings on reasonably elegant restaurant wine glasses as well, and I believe carafes are lined regardless if you were drinking out of handmade Reidel or something. It is absolute. Some way to PROVE that what the menu says (and it HAS to) is what you actually get (and knowing Germany, it IS what you get, owing to a cultural sense of public shame that would make a national-media ridicule out of falsely-lined glassware.)

Germans are standards-crazy - not just wine or beer, but the quantity of meat served in a given dish must be at least the minimum specified on the menu, in grams. I think this is a hold-over from wartime scarcity and rationing, when counting your grams per day of fat was an actual survival concern. Even today, Germans call their hot meals 'Fettes Essen' which refers to hearty meat dishes with that 'sustaining' fat.

Hence the persistence of lined glasses today.

[Kel Varnsen]

All hyperventilating aside. The lack of standard pint sizing is the ONLY problem. I don't see an enforced Pint affecting the importation of Orval, or the price of chickens, or anything else. It's a basic flaw in consumer protection that needs to be fixed.

That's exactly what I am getting at, the fact that you can order a beer in a bar and have no idea how much you are getting is pretty crazy to me. I mean imagine walking into the LCBO and the beer bottles and cans not having the volume listed on them, people wouldn't stand for that at all.

[Bobbyok]

All hyperventilating aside. The lack of standard pint sizing is the ONLY problem. I don't see an enforced Pint affecting the importation of Orval, or the price of chickens, or anything else. It's a basic flaw in consumer protection that needs to be fixed.

That's exactly what I am getting at, the fact that you can order a beer in a bar and have no idea how much you are getting is pretty crazy to me. I mean imagine walking into the LCBO and the beer bottles and cans not having the volume listed on them, people wouldn't stand for that at all.

My government supported "industry standard" 341 ml bottle of Pump House SOB, purchased at the government liquor store and filled as expected to about an inch of the cap, fell about a half cm short of the marked 330 ml line on my Corsendonk glass last night. Which level of government should I complain to?

[cannondale]

I think it's reasonable to say that government intervention in the form of consumer protection is appropriate where consumers have less than the required amount of information to protect themselves.

Is it the case that in the purchasing of a pint of beer we have less than the required amount of information to protect ourselves from being cheated?

Unlike many purchases that we make on a day to day basis, we have the opportunity to see the product prior to deciding whether or not to pay for it. Ideally, we have the mental capacity to assess whether or not the pint is sufficiently close to a true 'pint', or to at least assess whether or not we will be receiving sufficient value in the purchase, prior to deciding whether or not to pay for it. We are also free to not patronize any establishment which we feel is cheating it's customers.

Certainly I see the convenience of a standardized pint glass. But despite that convenience, I think that this is a battle that I would not pick.

It's surprising to see advocacy of government intervention in this thread, in consideration of the near daily derision of our perceived 'nanny state' in this forum.

[Belgian]

Well exactly - it DOESN'T make sense and it IS crazy!!

This is after all the same anal-retentive Provincial government that has to lab-test the crap out of everything beyond all common sense, AND has to obsessively note precise alcohol content variances within a tenth of a percent. We PAY for them to re-label all bottled products with corrected information so we kbow EXACTLY how much alcohol we are consuming in bottled products (err, supposedly).

Why then are 'pints' allowed to be so loosey-goosey? If various bars pour a different pint each time, how do we accurately calculate our alcohol intake & moreover how do we become familiar with our personal alcohol tolerance?

If I am used to a bar selling 80% pints, and my usual maximum tolerance of a certain beer is four or six of those 'pints', then going to a bar that serves 100% pints could put me WAY over my usual alcohol tolerance for the same number of pints. This is arguably a health and safety issue with potentially serious consequences, and given the control-freaky nature of Ontario in all other things, pints should really be regulated - for value concerns AND safety.

[JesseMcG]

This is arguably a health and safety issue with potentially serious consequences, and given the control-freaky nature of Ontario in all other things, pints should really be regulated - for value concerns AND safety.

Really??? You seriously believe that?

Do you drink your beer through an IV? All 4-6 pints at once...

Do you have no sense of how the alcohol is affecting you as you're consuming it?

If so you've got bigger problems.

[Belgian]

WHOOSH - sound of my point going right over your head.

[JesseMcG]

WHOOSH - sound of my point going right over your head.

I guess so. If you were being sarcastic, that was lost on me.

[Belgian]

Same stringent bottle-labelling rationale of the LCBO, applied to accountable sizing of pints.

But 'six pints' I was not citing a literal, personal example. (LOL This is just like the Ali G show!!) I mean a person (any person) could accidentally over-drink substantially more than they are used to, and as a result stumble into oncoming traffic or something tragic like that.

Again, this person stumbling into traffic did not LITERALLY happen. It is hypothetical scenario. The LCBO with its fussy labelling assumes we're too stupid to sense our level of inebriation so why not the LLBO with its pint sixing? The LLBO could make sure stupid people never receive larger than normally expected pints, which should please them very much in preventing mass death. (They would be our heroes!)

[cannondale]

Well exactly - it DOESN'T make sense and it IS crazy!!

This is after all the same anal-retentive Provincial government that has to lab-test the crap out of everything beyond all common sense, AND has to obsessively note precise alcohol content variances within a tenth of a percent. We PAY for them to re-label all bottled products with corrected information so we kbow EXACTLY how much alcohol we are consuming in bottled products (err, supposedly).

Why then are 'pints' allowed to be so loosey-goosey? If various bars pour a different pint each time, how do we accurately calculate our alcohol intake & moreover how do we become familiar with our personal alcohol tolerance?

If I am used to a bar selling 80% pints, and my usual maximum tolerance of a certain beer is four or six of those 'pints', then going to a bar that serves 100% pints could put me WAY over my usual alcohol tolerance for the same number of pints. This is arguably a health and safety issue with potentially serious consequences, and given the control-freaky nature of Ontario in all other things, pints should really be regulated - for value concerns AND safety.

Ya ya, but do you really think that advocating additional government intervention would be a prudent move in an overall strategy to reduce regulation of alcoholic beverages?