Manitoba to Allow Beer/Wine Sales in Grocery Stores

[icemachine]

Not only that, but once the province sees their is no large increase in public drunken activity, specialty stores and corner shops will have a better chance at getting licensed than under a sudden regime change.

You believe the government (Manitoban or Ontarian) is smoking its own shit with regards to social responsibility?

I believe governments take actions that they hope will get them re-elected. If a large enough number of people complain for a long enough period of time and throwing a bone can partially satisfy their complaints shortly before an election, then small changes can happen.

[mintjellie]

A grocery store will carry any micro brand that can sell in sufficient volume. Further, it will be easier for these intro level micro brands to get a chance at a couple of local grocery stores then it will be to be carried province wide at a provincial liqour monopoly chain. As more craft beers slowly come to market, people will slowly aquire a taste for craft beer. Beer culture will develop organically. Do you think Sierra Nevada and Sam Adams got grocery store contracts overnight? How about Stone or Ommegang?

Take the long view guys. I don't give shit if the availability sucks in the short term, if the regulatory environment is conducive to some Canadian equivalent to Stone putting product on corner grocery store shelves 25 years from now.

You want to see a mainstream grocery store? I'm sure most of us have been to Wegmans before.

I wish Wegmans would expand to Canada and run Loblaws out of business.

[Jon Walker]

We'll have to beg to differ on Quebec. While there are more places to buy bottled beer it's still a challenge to find GOOD bottled beer. There are only 4 or 5 depanneurs in the greater Montreal area, population over 2 million, that stock a good assortment of micros. Even those have almost no beer from outside the province. The SAQ is a joke. It stocks almost none of the locally made micros and has the same tired list of 20 or 30 imports they've had for more than a decade.

So while the indigenous micro industry there is booming there continues to be a lack of availability and selection of good beer on the whole at the retail level. Is it better than Ontario? I wouldn't trade the LCBO and their seasonal program for SAQ and a handful of remote stores stocking Ontario micros many of which are currently available at the local LCBO. No U.S. imports, no DDC etc...You'd gain in some areas and lose in others.

And as far as Manitoba goes...let's wait and see. If you guys are comfortable waiting 25 years for beer selection to get better there then you're right, macro kiosks in big grocery stores is excellent news. I believe it's a step in the wrong direction, would be a disaster for the cause of good beer if the model were copied in Ontario and that there are better options that should be advocated for in Ontario that will see change happen more quickly than 25 years from now.

Bottom line, while Ontario is never going to turn into the U.S. there might be a chance to turn in to B.C. which IMHO would be your best hope. Despite some high prices we do really have a great setup.

- The BC Liquor Store carries an adequate number of good, non macro local and imported beers alongside all the usual crap you'd expect.
- They have a reasonable change in inventory a few times a year with new stuff turning up that is a surprise.
- Since there's no Beer Store here all the beers are available in the Liquor Stores and are on the floor where you can see them.
- Private stores are abundant and a much higher ratio of them carry at least some good beer compared to the depanneurs in Montreal. (Because they are in business to sell beer, wine and liquor only, not chips, slurpies and tampons)
- Private stores don't just sell locally made beers they sell a lot of imports too.
- We have a number of excellent importers in town who are bringing in amazing stuff from both the U.S. and a round the world. You'd be amazed at the selection out here.
- Importers are able to bring in kegged beers from the U.S. and abroad without them being tied to a big brewer like InBev. Hence St.Bernardus Abt 12 and Stone Vertical Epic being on tap here recently.

Not to mention great local brewers turning out tons of seasonals due to all the retail outlets for such beers, AND a great craft beer scene in pubs and bars like Alibi wihch has close to 50 taps now of truly amazing stuff. And all this change from an over-regulated monopoly with little imagination to a more open and diverse retail system happened in the past decade (at least the most significant changes). Study B.C., advocate for that type of change...not macro beer kiosks in big grocery stores.

And last, the comment regarding a more open liquor sales system not leading to increased issues like alcohol related illness and crime...that's actually incorrect. There are a number of well documented studies showing the opposite is true.

[lister]

I do agree with Jon.

Particularly with Montreal. The beer buying experience there quite frankly sucks. After numerous visits there I haven't found a single good depanneur downtown. You have to travel outside the core. At this point the only depanneur I go to now is Rahman and that's largely due to it's proximity to Dieu du Ciel. Two birds, one stone. Peluso, while impressive, is too far away from the core and there's nothing around there that makes the trip worthwhile. Oh, I don't drive to Montreal.

I don't want to have to play beerhunter. I did that enough with another hobby of mine that I'm sick and tired of running around and chasing stuff. I'm too old for that shit.

My first visit there I was hoping to see beers from NY, VT, MA and ME. No such luck, I was shocked. The import selection in Quebec sucks. Awesome Quebec selection at a handful of depanneurs but otherwise...

How about this idea? The LCBO ditches the crappy macro beers, wine plonk and low-end spirits and let's private, grocery and corner stores carry that stuff. We know in a semi-open and completely open environment that's going to happen anyways. IMO we won't see specialty beer stores open up in downtown Toronto (where I live and work, which influences this opinion, quite frankly I don't want to travel to the 'burbs to get good beer.) The LCBO/AGCO then relaxes their bureaucratic crap, brings beer up to the level of service that Vintages does and focuses on the good stuff bringing in more product at good prices. On top of that allow the OCB to open stores and allow Ontario Wineries to expand their stores from what we have now.

[Belgian]

We'll have to beg to differ on Quebec. While there are more places to buy bottled beer it's still a challenge to find GOOD bottled beer. There are only 4 or 5 depanneurs in the greater Montreal area, population over 2 million, that stock a good assortment of micros. Even those have almost no beer from outside the province. The SAQ is a joke. It stocks almost none of the locally made micros and has the same tired list of 20 or 30 imports they've had for more than a decade.

So while the indigenous micro industry there is booming there continues to be a lack of availability and selection of good beer on the whole at the retail level. Is it better than Ontario? I wouldn't trade the LCBO and their seasonal program for SAQ and a handful of remote stores stocking Ontario micros many of which are currently available at the local LCBO. No U.S. imports, no DDC etc...You'd gain in some areas and lose in others.

Jon you've nailed the important differences outlining the advantages of Ont VS Que. I substantially agree - in fact maybe the more I get to know Montreal/Quebec beers, the less I will 'like' those 4 or 5 Depanneurs - they are very Quebec-centric and they might also run out of new stuff. Familiarity breeds boredom when things don't develop.

But for me right now having logged a few weeks time beer-hunting in Montreal - on foot - I would not say the 4 or 5 Deps I like are in any way 'remote' - remote from what? Nor are they extremely limited for the purpose of getting to know a substantial number of Quebec beers.

Also there's no barrier for you, me or anyone wanting to open a better Montreal store. It could be better-situated, better stocked, offer specials, be nicer-looking or anything you want it to be. If the market demand is really there for it you will survive. If not, there's no point. Build a Peluso MK II if you have a better idea and the courage. Fact is, Quebec has at least that much chance for an individual to do that, while Ontario does not.

Looking for a co-investor?

[Jon Walker]

Also there's no barrier for you, me or anyone wanting to open a beteer Montreal store. It could be better-siturated, better stocked, offer specials, nicer-looking or anything you want it to be. If the market demand is really there for it you will survive. If not, there's no point. Build a Peluso MK II if you have a better idea and the courage. Fact is, Quebec has at least that much chance for an individual to do that, while Ontario does not.

Looking for a co-investor?

I hate to tell you but there are some important things you've overlooked.

So you open this new store in the perfect downtown Montreal neighborhood, close to the Metro, good potential clientele etc...Now what do you stock it with beyond the quality Quebec beers you can access? How about some Victory, Southern Tier, Red Racer IPA and Fuller's 1845 to start. Nope. Quebec packaging law would require all the breweries to comply with the very specific French language labeling requirements. Even France's labeling requirements aren't so strict. Good luck convincing those breweries to create a new label (strip labeling won't cut it, the rules require more French on the label than English) just for your one store. It's a big part of the reason that Quebec currently brings in almost no American beer (except for macro brands license brewed by Canadian subsidiaries). A lot of European beer will not comply either. And breweries only knuckle under to LCBO strip labeling requirements because the orders are so huge (or they hope they will be regular). How big will your order be for your one store?

Damn. Okay, but you can still stock a pile of Belgian and French beers that comply right? Only if you can find an importer. There are very few importers in Quebec and they bring in a modest amount of stuff. So your selection is going to be mostly Quebec stuff with the odd Belgian.

But that's okay...you can have lots of amazing stuff. Nope. Quebec doesn't currently allow stores to ONLY sell beer, wine and spirits...just depanneurs. So you will have to save the majority of your shelf space for cereal, diapers and instant coffee.

Doesn't sound quite so barrier free now does it?

[rejtable]

But that's okay...you can have lots of amazing stuff. Nope. Quebec doesn't currently allow stores to ONLY sell beer, wine and spirits...just depanneurs. So you will have to save the majority of your shelf space for cereal, diapers and instant coffee.

I have never bought cereal, diapers or instant coffee at Broue Haha or Trappe à Fromage in the Gatineau area.

In terms of space, Trappe has more space for food than beer, for sure, but you would not walk into BroueHaha in Gatineau and think you are in anything but a bottle shop. Some gourmet sausages, cheese and chocolate, and some glasses, but the store is a bottle store.

[Jon Walker]

I was being cheeky. The underlying point being you would have to stock other stuff and that pushes you into a different type of business than a straight up beer and wine store like you find in B.C., Alberta or the U.S.

[rejtable]

I was being cheeky. The underlying point being you would have to stock other stuff and that pushes you into a different type of business than a straight up beer and wine store like you find in B.C., Alberta or the U.S.

But again, this can't be totally true in that BroueHaha is a bottle store. They have a basic cooler with some meat, cheese and chocolate in it, but it is certainly not pushing them towards anything but being a bottle store.

[Jon Walker]

It still requires different suppliers, different food handling requirements and licenses...I think you might be missing the broader points of the post.

[mintjellie]

I think that as a pilot project, the province should keep the lcbo monopoly in most of the province, but open up larger urban areas like the GTA, London, Barrie, Niagara, Windsor, and Ottawa to private specialty retailers who compete alongside the lcbo and brewers retail. Shops that are allowed to sell nothing but beer, wine, and spirits. Maybe even some ancillary products like glassware, serving equipment, fine cheeses and cured meats, bread, etc. Hopefully, at least some of them would specialize in the high end shit - craft beer, premium wines, premiums spirits, etc. Finally, let them order in at wholesale prices without using the LCBO as a middleman. Let them order in any product they want, so long as it is lab tested by the LCBO (let the bureacrats stick their petty fiefdoms hand in the pie somewhere), and labelled with an accurate ABV - strip labels applied by the store itself should be fine.

That will never happen though. The unions will scream about how these stores will carry nothing but Bud Light at 50 dollars a case and sell the demon liquor to 12 year olds, the kind of fear mongering bullshit the union has always played up when they fear losing their stranglehold.

[mintjellie]

Also, Jon Walker.

Just wanted to say I appreciate your well thought out points of view and your insights into the regulatory regimes concerning alcohol sales in various provinces. You give quite a bit to think on. I raise a beer in salute!

[SteelbackGuy]

Let them order in any product they want, so long as it is lab tested by the LCBO (let the bureacrats stick their petty fiefdoms hand in the pie somewhere), and labelled with an accurate ABV - strip labels applied by the store itself should be fine.

The LCBO isn't the one that decides that those tests need to be done. They also have no say regarding label requirements. They are simply following their mandate that is given to them by the AGCO.

[rejtable]

I think that as a pilot project, the province should keep the lcbo monopoly in most of the province, but open up larger urban areas like the GTA, London, Barrie, Niagara, Windsor, and Ottawa to private specialty retailers who compete alongside the lcbo and brewers retail. Shops that are allowed to sell nothing but beer, wine, and spirits. Maybe even some ancillary products like glassware, serving equipment, fine cheeses and cured meats, bread, etc. Hopefully, at least some of them would specialize in the high end shit - craft beer, premium wines, premiums spirits, etc. Finally, let them order in at wholesale prices without using the LCBO as a middleman. Let them order in any product they want, so long as it is lab tested by the LCBO (let the bureacrats stick their petty fiefdoms hand in the pie somewhere), and labelled with an accurate ABV - strip labels applied by the store itself should be fine.

Isn't this essentially what Nova Scotia has? In fact, I thought the private retailers were allowed to sell pretty much what they want, provided it's NOT sold by the NSLC. Anyone?

And yes, I echo the comments to Jon. Good discussion.

And Jon, I don't think I'm missing the overall point. Just saying that while the are barriers and obstacles, you can open a store whose main purpose is to sell tasty beer to les Québecois. You can't sell tasty beer from all over the world, but you can still have a reasonably innovative and positive retail location. I have no idea if you can make money doing so, but that's for Dragon's Den not me! This is of course impossible to do in ON.

[mintjellie]

Let them order in any product they want, so long as it is lab tested by the LCBO (let the bureacrats stick their petty fiefdoms hand in the pie somewhere), and labelled with an accurate ABV - strip labels applied by the store itself should be fine.

The LCBO isn't the one that decides that those tests need to be done. They also have no say regarding label requirements. They are simply following their mandate that is given to them by the AGCO.

AGCO is one the alphabet soups I was referring to as a petty fiefdom.