The Bar Towel

JeffPorter wrote:

Cass wrote:

saints_gambit wrote:We're really not all that far behind the US. I keep saying it, but no one wants to believe it yet.

I sort of wonder what it will take.

(at least) two factors to overcome.

1. A collective inferiority complex, which affects Toronto as a whole. I have to think this weighs ratings down, if that kind of thing matters. But if we don't believe we've got great beer, this permeates others.

I wanted to add something to this, but don't think I can - well said...

I'm not sure that I completely agree with that. While I don't disagree with the basic premise, I think there are a couple of other factors that skew ratings in the opposite direction:

1. (Positive) Local Bias. The recent IPA boom in Ontario is a great example of this. Brew a great local IPA, and people give it 4.0-5.0 ratings on BA/RB. I am not about to argue that 10BY, Cameron's Rye IPA and Smash Bomb aren't great beers, because they are. But there is a huge local bias factor associated with being one of the first quality beers of a certain style in Ontario. If you sent these beers to people south of the border, the average score would be lower.

2. Lack of quality beer for comparison. A lot of Ontario beer drinkers don't live within a couple of hours of the border and/or don't have the wherewithal to make regular trips to the US to pick up craft beer. An above average beer to someone like this may seems like a world class beer.


There are factors that skew ratings in both directions. I see it in Ontario and I also see it in Quebec and BC. I admit that I even have trouble being completely objective to a quality Ontario craft brew sometimes.

TheSevenDuffs wrote:Then again, there are certain states that I could also argue are way behind Ontario...

Very true. We're always comparing to California, Washington, Oregon, Michigan, etc... which may be the 'gold standard', but they may also be more than 2 standard deviations from the norm.

IMHO, there are some world-class breweries in Quebec, but there's also a lot of lack luster products there as well. BC has been slowly catching up to the US (west-coast) for a while, but in the last 5 years I'd say Ontario has made up for at least a decade, maybe two. Sure there's not quite as much variety, but we don't have nearly as much population either.

TheSevenDuffs wrote: 1. (Positive) Local Bias. The recent IPA boom in Ontario is a great example of this. Brew a great local IPA, and people give it 4.0-5.0 ratings on BA/RB. I am not about to argue that 10BY, Cameron's Rye IPA and Smash Bomb aren't great beers, because they are. But there is a huge local bias factor associated with being one of the first quality beers of a certain style in Ontario. If you sent these beers to people south of the border, the average score would be lower.

Interestingly, Wellington RIS may be a case where the opposite is true.
(http://www.ratebeer.com/beer/wellington ... t/213/2/1/)

Many out of province raters have rated it fairly highly. (Based on the small sample of "top raters". Im not going to run all 97 ratings through a statistical analysis )

Hi folks,

Just to give some examples of how fast things have changed in Ontario ...

IPAs over the last 2 years -- they've gone from being one-offs for IPA Challenge to mainstays.

Wine barrels in the last six months.

Spring Oddity showing up in the LCBO at a surprising price point in a lovely bottle. Or, honestly, Muskoka's complete reinvention of itself over the last couple years. With Amsterdam, Great Lakes, and Black also putting some very tasty beers into distribution.

Deliberately soured / funked beers over the last year.

Good times to be a beer drinker. And a part time brewer with flexible hours brewer

TheSevenDuffs wrote:

JeffPorter wrote:

Cass wrote: (at least) two factors to overcome.

1. A collective inferiority complex, which affects Toronto as a whole. I have to think this weighs ratings down, if that kind of thing matters. But if we don't believe we've got great beer, this permeates others.

I wanted to add something to this, but don't think I can - well said...

I'm not sure that I completely agree with that. While I don't disagree with the basic premise, I think there are a couple of other factors that skew ratings in the opposite direction:

1. (Positive) Local Bias. The recent IPA boom in Ontario is a great example of this. Brew a great local IPA, and people give it 4.0-5.0 ratings on BA/RB. I am not about to argue that 10BY, Cameron's Rye IPA and Smash Bomb aren't great beers, because they are. But there is a huge local bias factor associated with being one of the first quality beers of a certain style in Ontario. If you sent these beers to people south of the border, the average score would be lower.

2. Lack of quality beer for comparison. A lot of Ontario beer drinkers don't live within a couple of hours of the border and/or don't have the wherewithal to make regular trips to the US to pick up craft beer. An above average beer to someone like this may seems like a world class beer.


There are factors that skew ratings in both directions. I see it in Ontario and I also see it in Quebec and BC. I admit that I even have trouble being completely objective to a quality Ontario craft brew sometimes.

I have to agree with much of this.

But locally-made beer, IPAs for example IS often better beer - it's fresher, therefore more integral & true to the best examples of its style (or at least it can be.)

I've seen 'inferiority complex' rating comments for beers like Boneshaker, Tempest, the TDD/Beau's collab Saison - these comments read to me like 'I'm just not sure I can support this until it's Status Quo to do so.' Good beer is just inarguably good beer whoever or wherever it's from.

** edit ** I will add it's still a GREAT process to try many, many USA-made craft beers, for example in Buffalo - while the USA is still ahead of the curve, knowing what they have sets an excellent referene for appreciating & assessing the crazy amount of progress we're making here in brew production.

I say brew production because brew talent seems to already exist - guys coming out of the woodwork and making stunning beers, Belwoods for example has the best DIPA in the province and it seems like 'hey where's THAT come from?' The talent was already there, the production of beer was just awaiting opportunity. They GET it, what's going on in the USA etc.

TheSevenDuffs wrote: 1. (Positive) Local Bias. The recent IPA boom in Ontario is a great example of this. Brew a great local IPA, and people give it 4.0-5.0 ratings on BA/RB. I am not about to argue that 10BY, Cameron's Rye IPA and Smash Bomb aren't great beers, because they are. But there is a huge local bias factor associated with being one of the first quality beers of a certain style in Ontario. If you sent these beers to people south of the border, the average score would be lower.

Funny, that kind of proves my point about inferiority. Who's to say that our beers wouldn't do well in the States? And would not a positive local bias exist within the States as well for their own beers, thereby affecting those ratings? We can't go on the ratings alone, but we have to believe that our beer is good compared to others.

But there's the rub, the fact is that since we have a (mostly) closed market for beer we lack context. Imagine if you wanted to be a movie reviewer but could only watch Canadian movies. That's kind of what it's like for beer, speaking mostly on draught.

I was in Philly last year and a beer bar had Hopfenstark on tap. Did it stand up against the others from the US? Definitely. Could Ontario beer? Sure, but rarely does it go south. But if it did and people loved it, we'd probably respect our own beer even more. Similarly, if our beer held its own at Ontario bars against Stone, Dogfish, etc. on tap, the same would happen. But it doesn't presently, hence the conversation continues.

Here's the Ted talk that was mentioned earlier:

Cass wrote:

TheSevenDuffs wrote: 1. (Positive) Local Bias. The recent IPA boom in Ontario is a great example of this. Brew a great local IPA, and people give it 4.0-5.0 ratings on BA/RB. I am not about to argue that 10BY, Cameron's Rye IPA and Smash Bomb aren't great beers, because they are. But there is a huge local bias factor associated with being one of the first quality beers of a certain style in Ontario. If you sent these beers to people south of the border, the average score would be lower.

Funny, that kind of proves my point about inferiority. Who's to say that our beers wouldn't do well in the States? And would not a positive local bias exist within the States as well for their own beers, thereby affecting those ratings? We can't go on the ratings alone, but we have to believe that our beer is good compared to others.

But there's the rub, the fact is that since we have a (mostly) closed market for beer we lack context. Imagine if you wanted to be a movie reviewer but could only watch Canadian movies. That's kind of what it's like for beer, speaking mostly on draught.

I was in Philly last year and a beer bar had Hopfenstark on tap. Did it stand up against the others from the US? Definitely. Could Ontario beer? Sure, but rarely does it go south. But if it did and people loved it, we'd probably respect our own beer even more. Similarly, if our beer held its own at Ontario bars against Stone, Dogfish, etc. on tap, the same would happen. But it doesn't presently, hence the conversation continues.

Agree completely, Cass. The main difference does come down to our closed market. I think that the "bias" in Ontario beers (for example), no matter which way it goes, is heightened by the poor inter-province distribtion that this country is plagued by.

I 100% agree that local (positive) biases exist in California, Michigan, Oregon, and everywhere else in the US as well. The difference is that with better distribution, the law of averages eventually catches up with those biases. In Ontario, there is no law of averages to even things out.

All your points are valid. I would love to go to Volo or C'Est What and be able to try 10BY along side DFH 90 Minute, SN Torpedo, Founders Double Trouble, etc. I don't see that happening any time soon though...

We're definitely getting there in terms of the quality of (some) of our beers. Most local breweries are now making at least one spectacular beer, whereas a few years ago, they weren't (see: Nickelbrook, Cameron's).

But I don't think we're anywhere near the US at this point, and mostly due to a lack of selection. Nowhere in Ontario can you walk into an LCBO and say "wow, look at this selection!" because it's the same as every other LCBO, or worse. The LCBO releases are nice, and have been getting better, but that's 10-12 new beers what, 6 times a year? That's pretty shitty and in no way compares to stores in Buffalo.

And the last frustration is that the new beers we all love from these breweries are mostly brewery-only. Of the last few months: Black Oak 10BY, Tempest, RPA, all the interesting Great Lakes releases bar the porter have all been brewery-only and in limited capacity.

andrewrg wrote: And the last frustration is that the new beers we all love from these breweries are mostly brewery-only. Of the last few months: Black Oak 10BY, Tempest, RPA, all the interesting Great Lakes releases bar the porter have all been brewery-only and in limited capacity.

I think that we are now seeing the results of experimentation. Some of the best beer I have had this year is from Ontario. I actually think almost all of the ones that have made me go "Wow that's good!" has been Canadian.

I agree that it is frustrating to see some of the best stuff get such limited releases, but there are a number of reasons for that, including price, demand, scale of the experiment etc.

That said, Black Oak ramped up production on the latest 10 Bitter Years, Amsterdam and Great Lakes are both doing or planning production sized batches of some of their "one offs". House Ales Tu Hop was done in a production size and is now available outside of Volo. Those are all positive indicators imho.

Also, regarding the amazing selection at places in Buffalo, I agree that they tend to impressive but if you took all the crappy stuff off the shelf at Premier it would be a smaller set of shelves...

I think that part of our inferiority complex stems from the fact that we were inferior for so long. We just didn't have the craft beer explosion that the US had in the early 90's.

I think the closed system has allowed our brewers to catch up. If it was an open market there wouldn't have been seen nearly as many start-ups in the last decade. Many US brewers were already producing flavourful and consistent brews. Sure there would have been a few people that bought local, but I don't think Canadian brewing would have gained the same momentum.

Now, I would agree that we're on-par. It'd be great to have more selection, but at the same time I do like to support our local brewers. In an open market, I don't think the competition would be quality, but it would be limited market share. Some of the US brewers are giants compared to our microbreweries. Yes, overall quality would continue to improve, but it would be at the cost of a few businesses that never get the chance to get their shit together.

Ontario has certainly turned a corner in the last year or so.

You've got lots of great local breweries putting out some decent product. Keep supporting the hell out of them, it will only get better.

The inferiority complex we have EVERYWHERE in Canada is that we still believe that imports are always better. They aren't. Beer tastes best closest to the source.

You guys are doing just fine. It's also quite apparent you will never give up your god given right to bitch about the LCBO.

Derek wrote:

TheSevenDuffs wrote:Then again, there are certain states that I could also argue are way behind Ontario...

Very true. We're always comparing to California, Washington, Oregon, Michigan, etc... which may be the 'gold standard', but they may also be more than 2 standard deviations from the norm.

The problem is that even within those pockets of awesomeness, it can be hard to find a lot of things. And people that live there complain about not getting the rare stuff, or East Coast stuff...

What do we *really* want? Do you want 100 different beers on the shelf? Or would it be enough to have 5 good stouts, 5 good IPAs, 5 good pale ales, etc. on the shelf all the time, with rotating features throughout the year? Frankly I don't need 20 IPAs at the LCBO *all* the time. Just getting more readily available bottles of some of the stuff currently getting made would be a good start!

markaberrant wrote:Ontario has certainly turned a corner in the last year or so.

You've got lots of great local breweries putting out some decent product. Keep supporting the hell out of them, it will only get better.

The inferiority complex we have EVERYWHERE in Canada is that we still believe that imports are always better. They aren't. Beer tastes best closest to the source.

You guys are doing just fine. It's also quite apparent you will never give up your god given right to bitch about the LCBO.

You're right, but it's not just the last year. There's no one release that's going to do it. I've been paying pretty close attention over the last three years or so, and the effect of innovation is cumulative. We've been turning the corner for a long time. It's a big corner. At some point in the next... three months or so, the market is going to realize we have the IPA thing sussed and that belgian is the game now. At Session, the majority of booths had belgian styles they hadn't made before. There were even some Berliner Weisses.

It's going to be fun. We're going to be great. We're not quite there yet, but the quality and the variety will force market change.