Well, here's a different take

[shintriad]

Yeah, I also completely disagree with the OCB's position. Don't know why they'dd crap their pants over the prospect of battling it out with the big guys, when they already do so in bars, pubs and restaurants across the province. Meanwhile, all the best craft beer bars seem to always be packed.

You guys should consider dropping some comments on Torontoist as well!

[saints_gambit]

Yeah, I also completely disagree with the OCB's position. Don't know why they'dd crap their pants over the prospect of battling it out with the big guys, when they already do so in bars, pubs and restaurants across the province. Meanwhile, all the best craft beer bars seem to always be packed.

You guys should consider dropping some comments on Torontoist as well!

You don't know why?

Ok. There are like... only a certain number of beer stores. They make you pay for a listing, but you pay uniformly at about 2200 bucks for the chain and 200 bucks per store (I'm not pausing to look it up.) There are .... say 7500 stores just in the OCSA, not including the grocery store chains and the independent convenience stores across the province. Incidentally, all of the money that the OCB has already paid the beer store is a sunk cost. It ain't coming back.

Instead of paying a maximum of say... 75k (again, not pausing, but it's comparable) to get into all the beer stores (~600?) and paying your competition for a service that is more or less stable, you're now going to be dealing with 7500 OCSA member stores from 66 members. Maybe you produce enough volume to hammer out a deal with chains, but maybe you don't, making the proposition a non-starter.

Probably, if it comes down to a choice between Molson and Labatt and you, they will take the guys who pay for shelf space. ie. not you. The OCSA mission statement is:

"This work involves developing a strong advocate lobby working with Members to raise the profile of the issue with the provincial Governments and to secure appropriate legislation to proceed.

The sale of beer and wine in convenience stores is a prime business development sector for Members. This endorsement further supports our contention that restrictions placed on our Members are discriminatory and create an unfair business practice."

Notice how it don't say nothin' about makin' you happy.

It's a legitimate concern. I know you guys think that it'll all work out, but look at Montreal. How many good deppaneurs are there that sell craft beer? Like... Rahman and six or seven others?

[cmadd]

I get how the prospect is scary for current craft producers in Ontario. Who wouldn't like a cushy protected market with steady and reliable revenue (once you're in the system)?

What I don't get is why anyone who consumes craft beer would be opposed to this.

I want someone who opposes privatization and reduced regulation in the beer industry to name a single province or state, which was deregulated, that now has a manifestly worse craft beer experience.

I don't think it can be done. The two biggest criticism is that most stores will carry BMC and prices will go up. Do you fill up at gas stations in New York State and see only BMC and say "Fuck this, I'm going back to the LCBO", or do you continue to the two stores in Buffalo that you know will have a fantastic selection?

The cost of beer will probably go up go up. But most people on this forum have paid for travel to other Canadian or American cities, shat their pants at the selection in one store, carried back cases of beer, and paid duty. Are you kidding me? Tell me that's not the most shockingly expensive way to try Two-Hearted Ale.

Sure, there'd be growing pains. We might even lose Trafalgar. But the upshot will be bigger selection and local breweries capable of competing with international brands.

[JerCraigs]

I get how the prospect is scary for current craft producers in Ontario. Who wouldn't like a cushy protected market with steady and reliable revenue (once you're in the system)?

What I don't get is why anyone who consumes craft beer would be opposed to this... The two biggest criticism is that most stores will carry BMC and prices will go up. Do you fill up at gas stations in New York State and see only BMC and say "Fuck this, I'm going back to the LCBO", or do you continue to the two stores in Buffalo that you know will have a fantastic selection?

We are kind of beating a dead horse here...
- Steady and reliable revenue is what keeps breweries alive. Which brewers are you willing to lose?
- Which distribution areas are you willing to sacrifice? How far are you willing to drive to get to the handful of great craft beer stores? The LCBO and TBS provide distribution infrastructure that most small breweries cannot afford to replicate. Adding another delivery vehicle and driver is a not insignificant expense.
- Will brewers have the time and money to do cool one offs if they now have to spend more of it to deliver their flagship brews that pay the bills?

[Bytowner]

I get how the prospect is scary for current craft producers in Ontario. Who wouldn't like a cushy protected market with steady and reliable revenue (once you're in the system)?

What I don't get is why anyone who consumes craft beer would be opposed to this.

I want someone who opposes privatization and reduced regulation in the beer industry to name a single province or state, which was deregulated, that now has a manifestly worse craft beer experience.

I don't think it can be done. The two biggest criticism is that most stores will carry BMC and prices will go up. Do you fill up at gas stations in New York State and see only BMC and say "Fuck this, I'm going back to the LCBO", or do you continue to the two stores in Buffalo that you know will have a fantastic selection?

The cost of beer will probably go up go up. But most people on this forum have paid for travel to other Canadian or American cities, shat their pants at the selection in one store, carried back cases of beer, and paid duty. Are you kidding me? Tell me that's not the most shockingly expensive way to try Two-Hearted Ale.

Sure, there'd be growing pains. We might even lose Trafalgar. But the upshot will be bigger selection and local breweries capable of competing with international brands.

That's a strawman. I don't see anyone suggesting there isn't room for reduced regulation. We're talking about a very specific idea.

We're going 'round and 'round in circles. I have never shat myself in a Canadian city outside of Ontario at the variety available in stores. I regularly shop in Quebec for beer, but only because they have a different selection from the LCBO, NOT a better selection. Yeah, the system is kinder to local breweries for special releases, but we know that's not because of a simple loosening of regulations, it was accompanied by specific rules about what small retailers were allowed to carry.

New York and Ontario are entirely different markets, please stop pretending they aren't.

[saints_gambit]

I get how the prospect is scary for current craft producers in Ontario. Who wouldn't like a cushy protected market with steady and reliable revenue (once you're in the system)?

What I don't get is why anyone who consumes craft beer would be opposed to this.

I want someone who opposes privatization and reduced regulation in the beer industry to name a single province or state, which was deregulated, that now has a manifestly worse craft beer experience.

I don't think it can be done. The two biggest criticism is that most stores will carry BMC and prices will go up. Do you fill up at gas stations in New York State and see only BMC and say "Fuck this, I'm going back to the LCBO", or do you continue to the two stores in Buffalo that you know will have a fantastic selection?

The cost of beer will probably go up go up. But most people on this forum have paid for travel to other Canadian or American cities, shat their pants at the selection in one store, carried back cases of beer, and paid duty. Are you kidding me? Tell me that's not the most shockingly expensive way to try Two-Hearted Ale.

Sure, there'd be growing pains. We might even lose Trafalgar. But the upshot will be bigger selection and local breweries capable of competing with international brands.

That's a strawman. I don't see anyone suggesting there isn't room for reduced regulation. We're talking about a very specific idea.

We're going 'round and 'round in circles. I have never shat myself in a Canadian city outside of Ontario at the variety available in stores. I regularly shop in Quebec for beer, but only because they have a different selection from the LCBO, NOT a better selection. Yeah, the system is kinder to local breweries for special releases, but we know that's not because of a simple loosening of regulations, it was accompanied by specific rules about what small retailers were allowed to carry.

New York and Ontario are entirely different markets, please stop pretending they aren't.

Not only a strawman, but a "no true craft beer drinker"/scotsman fallacy

[cmadd]

I agree we're beating a dead horse, but clearly people on here disagree quite strongly. So I guess there's at least some value as long as we're learning something and arguing productively.

- Steady and reliable revenue is what keeps breweries alive. Which brewers are you willing to lose?

Trafalgar, Spearhead, Lake of Bays, ... I'm sure I could think of others. I know it seems crass, this is the livelihood of some people. If I think about the human beings involved, then, sure, let's keep them around. If I think about it purely from an end product point of view, I could do without them.

- Which distribution areas are you willing to sacrifice? How far are you willing to drive to get to the handful of great craft beer stores? The LCBO and TBS provide distribution infrastructure that most small breweries cannot afford to replicate. Adding another delivery vehicle and driver is a not insignificant expense.

I might be in the minority here. But considering I buy most of my beer from trips to the US and Vancouver, BC, I don't see this as a sacrifice. I see it as going from around 0 to maybe 10 good stores in the province. In any case, I imagine the LCBO and TBS wouldn't disappear.

I hadn't thought of the cost of distribution, but I imagine that would be absorbed into the price of the beer, which I've admitted would likely go up. Also, I was under the impression that small breweries still had to drive their beers to the LCBO. Maybe someone more knowledgeable can inform me as to the current state of distribution.

- Will brewers have the time and money to do cool one offs if they now have to spend more of it to deliver their flagship brews that pay the bills?

I don't really see how this is any different in the current system. This true of all breweries in North America. Very few make their money on the one-offs or limited releases. At the end of the day I'm going to repeat what I asked earlier. Is there a state or province where privatization ended in decreased selection or fewer one-offs? If you can point to one, and there's a chance that Ontario goes in that direction, then I'll be convinced.

We're talking about a very specific idea.

We're going 'round and 'round in circles. I have never shat myself in a Canadian city outside of Ontario at the variety available in stores. I regularly shop in Quebec for beer, but only because they have a different selection from the LCBO, NOT a better selection. Yeah, the system is kinder to local breweries for special releases, but we know that's not because of a simple loosening of regulations, it was accompanied by specific rules about what small retailers were allowed to carry.

New York and Ontario are entirely different markets, please stop pretending they aren't.

If the specific idea is to allow any convenience store to become an LCBO outlet, then I don't give a shit about this argument and I should stop posting.

But if it's allowing stores to circumvent the lengthy LCBO process, to work directly with importers, and to choose their own selection, then I'm all for it.

If you want to experience variety in Canada that approaches the US, I'd recommend visiting Brewery Creek, Firefly, or Darby's in Vancouver, BC.

You're right New York and Ontario are different markets. Which one would be an apt comparison?

[cmadd]

I get how the prospect is scary for current craft producers in Ontario. Who wouldn't like a cushy protected market with steady and reliable revenue (once you're in the system)?

What I don't get is why anyone who consumes craft beer would be opposed to this.

I want someone who opposes privatization and reduced regulation in the beer industry to name a single province or state, which was deregulated, that now has a manifestly worse craft beer experience.

I don't think it can be done. The two biggest criticism is that most stores will carry BMC and prices will go up. Do you fill up at gas stations in New York State and see only BMC and say "Fuck this, I'm going back to the LCBO", or do you continue to the two stores in Buffalo that you know will have a fantastic selection?

The cost of beer will probably go up go up. But most people on this forum have paid for travel to other Canadian or American cities, shat their pants at the selection in one store, carried back cases of beer, and paid duty. Are you kidding me? Tell me that's not the most shockingly expensive way to try Two-Hearted Ale.

Sure, there'd be growing pains. We might even lose Trafalgar. But the upshot will be bigger selection and local breweries capable of competing with international brands.

That's a strawman. I don't see anyone suggesting there isn't room for reduced regulation. We're talking about a very specific idea.

We're going 'round and 'round in circles. I have never shat myself in a Canadian city outside of Ontario at the variety available in stores. I regularly shop in Quebec for beer, but only because they have a different selection from the LCBO, NOT a better selection. Yeah, the system is kinder to local breweries for special releases, but we know that's not because of a simple loosening of regulations, it was accompanied by specific rules about what small retailers were allowed to carry.

New York and Ontario are entirely different markets, please stop pretending they aren't.

Not only a strawman, but a "no true craft beer drinker"/scotsman fallacy

Then convince me that it's in our interest to maintain the system.

[Tapsucker]

I think one point in this argument we are missing is that the convenience stores are not advocating and end to TBS or LCBO, just a chance to play along. We may still end up with well distributed craft beers in the LCBO, and crap at Mac's. Maybe they will adopt the Alberta model and maintain control over distribution, but not retailing? Or B.C. with two systems side by side?

This could all be incremental rather than detrimental. The Quebec problem, for instance, would be solved or at least improved if the SAQ started carrying local beer.

As for US comparisons, another missed point is how differently alcohol is priced in the US. In some ways we are better, like taxing on volume not wholesale price so the taxes paid on a premium product are equivalent to a discount product (excluding the HST portion). In others, we have pretty steep minimum pricing rules, but again these favour higher end products.

Ultimately change will probably benefit the big boys because they can use their clout to exploit it. But really, do the craft brewers even consider them competition? Does a benefit to MolBats translate into a loss for the OCB? Maybe in spirit, but there must be some great new opportunities for artisinal producers to latch onto. You might, for instance, get a foofoo place like Pussyteris stocking craft beer exclusively.

[andrewrg]

Whole Foods in the States has also shown interest in providing great craft beer selections. Given the opportunity, they might do the same here.

[saints_gambit]

Whole Foods in the States has also shown interest in providing great craft beer selections. Given the opportunity, they might do the same here.

Considering that President's Choice actually has a line of beers, it would probably be massively in their interest.

[JerCraigs]

- Steady and reliable revenue is what keeps breweries alive. Which brewers are you willing to lose?

Trafalgar, Spearhead, Lake of Bays, ... I'm sure I could think of others. I know it seems crass, this is the livelihood of some people. If I think about the human beings involved, then, sure, let's keep them around. If I think about it purely from an end product point of view, I could do without them.

The problem of course is that each person's list would be different, and we may not trade "like for like".

- Which distribution areas are you willing to sacrifice? How far are you willing to drive to get to the handful of great craft beer stores? The LCBO and TBS provide distribution infrastructure that most small breweries cannot afford to replicate. Adding another delivery vehicle and driver is a not insignificant expense.

I might be in the minority here. But considering I buy most of my beer from trips to the US and Vancouver, BC, I don't see this as a sacrifice. I see it as going from around 0 to maybe 10 good stores in the province. In any case, I imagine the LCBO and TBS wouldn't disappear.

I hadn't thought of the cost of distribution, but I imagine that would be absorbed into the price of the beer, which I've admitted would likely go up. Also, I was under the impression that small breweries still had to drive their beers to the LCBO. Maybe someone more knowledgeable can inform me as to the current state of distribution.

[/quote]

I believe that brewers can either self deliver to LCBOs or have TBS handle delivery but that may be a false impression on my part?

As a Torontonian, one good store would suit me... but I think a lot of the smaller towns would struggle to get the distribution.

I am curious what role the LCBO and TBS would have in beer sales if they let other stores start selling it? TBS could privatize (would they still allow craft brewers the same access?) and continue on. Why would the LCBO bother carrying beer at all if its available elsewhere?

[cmadd]

You realize TBS is privately owned.

[MatttthewGeorge]

before I make a point I want to state that this is my personal opinion, not the brewery I work for...

Personally I think most are missing the point here. Setting up any system besides a pure open market system will always favour one over another. The current system favours brewers over consumers. If this wasn't true then the macro & micro breweries wouldn't be fighting for status quo.

Allow us, with our money, to spend it where we will. (It's my money dammit!) The market will adjust accordingly. We may lose some brewers that don't adjust. That's unfortunate, but why should I be forced to prop up companies that cannot survive without government intervention?

[JerCraigs]

You realize TBS is privately owned.

You realize that is a gross over simplification? It is a privately owned entity that exists solely based on government regulations allowing it to exist.