The Bar Towel

This might be slightly off topic but I listened to this podcast over the weekend and I feel like it fits in nicely with the general theme of the discussion. Have a listen, I found it fascinating.

http://youarenotsosmart.com/2012/05/09/ ... isode-two/

JerCraigs wrote:One of the strengths of a competition like the IPA Challenge, Ratebeer scores, or a site like Rotten Tomatoes is the aggregation. If 99/100 people say a beer/film is awesome, it's probably good odds that it is at least decent. With wine it seems more common that a wine receives a score based on the opinion of one reviewer. Both types of reviews are tools that the consumer can use when choosing something.

Another strength is the relative transparency of those sites. A reader can see who (or at least their avatar) is rating what, and often other details (I now date and note the location of all my ratings for example) etc. One issue with "closed" competitions such as many of the major beer competitions is that without knowing who was judging, what criteria they were using, and what beers were in the competition I have no means to help me gauge how well the results might match my own tastes and preferences.


If I sort my ratings by the score I gave the beer, I rated 49 of my top 50 higher than the Ratebeer average. (The other 1 is Westveleteren 12!)

If I sort my ratings by the Ratebeer Score, the majority of my ratings are lower that that score. On the one hand you could argue that RB scores are not a good indicator for how much I am going to like a beer, but of those top 50 I rated all of them at least 3.6/5.0 or higher. Personally I think that means if I use the scores to pick stuff, factoring in style, etc. then it’s probably a good chance that I will at least like a new beer.

For what it's worth, you can find sites that do aggregated scores for wines too. It's a little harder, because wine is so much more fractured than beer, but wine-searcher.com will give you averages of critic scores and a site like winealign or cellartracker is basically the same thing as RB or BA.

squeaky wrote:For what it's worth, you can find sites that do aggregated scores for wines too. It's a little harder, because wine is so much more fractured than beer, but wine-searcher.com will give you averages of critic scores and a site like winealign or cellartracker is basically the same thing as RB or BA.

I'm actually quite shocked that there isn't a user driven RB/BA equivalent rating site for wine or spirits.

markaberrant wrote:

squeaky wrote:For what it's worth, you can find sites that do aggregated scores for wines too. It's a little harder, because wine is so much more fractured than beer, but wine-searcher.com will give you averages of critic scores and a site like winealign or cellartracker is basically the same thing as RB or BA.

I'm actually quite shocked that there isn't a user driven RB/BA equivalent rating site for wine or spirits.

Well, what do you mean by user-driven? CellarTracker seems like basically the same thing to me.

squeaky wrote:Well, what do you mean by user-driven? CellarTracker seems like basically the same thing to me.

Thanks, can't say I knew of that one.

But wow, what a clunky, awful, slow site... I'll have to explore it a bit more I guess, but not impressed so far.

It does seem like the wine world is waiting for one site like that to get good/big and take over the market. I've never really found one I like or that doesn't actually make you register to get all the features.

Maybe wine snobs are less tech-savvy than beer snobs? It's certainly possible, I bet they're an older demographic.

markaberrant wrote:But yeah, "professional" reviews and scores are highly skeptical. I'll give them that.

You mean something to be skeptical of. Yes, and it's crazy how much of a 'wolf pack' or cult mentality there is around the 'leading experts' scores, so much that they all seem to echo each other rather than contradict his holiness R. Parker or somebody. But on the other hand ANY of us can - on our own - get a pretty good 'working knowledge' education of wines ignoring all the 'trendy' bullshit. There are lots of other resources, you can learn what wines are (region grape history style) and as well you can even go travel & live IN the culture of Italy Spain Germany or France absorbing the learning directly. From this platform you can actually decide what wines you like by your personal finely-honed set of criteria (not scores or write-ups.)

I think it's unfortunate most people sufffer from a lack of really knowing at all what wines are, it's a pretty deep and wonderful field of knowledge even to scratch the surface of. Spending a lot for a 95-point wine you don't really like at all would be a tragedy of misunderstanding.

squeaky wrote:It does seem like the wine world is waiting for one site like that to get good/big...

I'm with you, all you get on Google is a few random bits and 800 shitty Natalie MacLean non-reviews (she must pay for a zillion Google hits but there's never any content) - yes it's very scattered, and nothing in the pure helpful spirit of RateBeer has emerged.
We might need a site particular to navigating the LCBO wines though... we have special availability problems here, and some special pricing issues in regards to value (some are amazing deals, some deplorable - this should all be weblicized and the new information brought to light!)

Belgian wrote:You mean something to be skeptical of. Yes, and it's crazy how much of a 'wolf pack' or cult mentality there is around the 'leading experts' scores, so much that they all seem to echo each other rather than contradict his holiness R. Parker or somebody. But on the other hand ANY of us can - on our own - get a pretty good 'working knowledge' education of wines ignoring all the 'trendy' bullshit. There are lots of other resources, you can learn what wines are (region grape history style) and as well you can even go travel & live IN the culture of Italy Spain Germany or France absorbing the learning directly. From this platform you can actually decide what wines you like by your personal finely-honed set of criteria (not scores or write-ups.)

I agree that the resources are out there for literally any product these days, but Joe Public isnt looking for them, he wants a simple and easy recommendation from a mouthpiece he blindly puts his trust in.

As a non-professional, yet passionate and reasonably well educated reviewer, judge, and afficiando of food and drink it is very easy to see through the thinly veiled "advertorials" written by the pros. I've also worked closely enough with the producers, publications, and writers to see how it works. Most of you on this site are likely just as aware how this racket works, if not moreso.

The local newspaper here always has a weekly half page "review" about a restaurant (always glowing), and then you flip the page and there is a 2-page ad from this very restauarant. What a coinky-dink! And one of our weekly local rags does an annual food awards issue, and again, what a surprise, every winner also has an ad in this very issue!

I recall a beer vs wine food pairing event I did last fall - it was me and my friend doing the beers, while it was 2 wine reps doing the wine... they were passionate and intelligent themselves, but the differences in approach were staggering... they had a product to ultimately sell, while we were just passionate about blowing people's minds with intense flavour combinations, and frankly didn't care if we won or lost... we actually pissed off the owner of the beer-centric establishment by doing it this way - he personally didn't enjoy some of our pairings, and he confronted us immediately after that we should have played it safer to ensure a victory, as he had been boasting for weeks prior to the event how beer was going to crush wine.

Bytowner wrote:I agree that it's getting worse, and mostly from people who have declared themselves beer experts within the past couple years.

Aroma is roasted malts, chocolate, coffee, bourbon and vanilla. Flavour is roasted malts, chocolate, chocolate, coffee, medium sweet, bourbon, vanilla and a little coconut.

I actually don't have a problem with that. Those are all, I think, easily discernable aromas and flavours (though 'bourbon' is a bit silly) and broad enough that any Joe off the street could pick them out. I think one of the best approaches, and I don't do this myself, is to use flavour discriptors rather than comparisons. So 'medium sweet' is useful, as are 'roasty', 'floral', 'bitter', 'fruity', etc. That said, some comparisons are certainly apt when it comes to beer, and we all know what people are talking about when they say 'pine', 'grapefruit', 'caramel', 'dark fruits' or even 'marmalade'.

This kind of thing (from BA) is where it gets dumb:

Succulent flavors of molassas, charred toffee, peanut brittle [...] Plumbs, figs, dates, raisons, bruised cherries, and prunes [...] Sweeter rums, fruitcake breadiness and light chocolates [...] Moderate aged notes of sherry and soy ...

Bruised cherries???

LOL. I actually love those poetic reviews... even though they kind of make me feel like a knuckle-drager with a limited vocabulary.

markaberrant wrote:

Belgian wrote:... crazy how much of a 'wolf pack' or cult mentality there is around the 'leading experts' scores, so much that they all seem to echo each other rather than contradict his holiness R. Parker or somebody. But on the other hand ANY of us can - on our own - get a pretty good 'working knowledge' education of wines ignoring all the 'trendy' bullshit. There are lots of other resources, you can learn what wines are (region grape history style) and as well you can even go travel & live IN the culture of Italy Spain Germany or France absorbing the learning directly. From this platform you can actually decide what wines you like by your personal finely-honed set of criteria (not scores or write-ups.)

I agree that the resources are out there for literally any product these days, but Joe Public isnt looking for them, he wants a simple and easy recommendation from a mouthpiece he blindly puts his trust in...

I don't think that's true all the time, certainly not in Europe where people more often 'live' their wine culture although maybe it's often true here. Canada/USA is very young. We have an extremely marketing-hypnotized culture, along with a generally crap sense of food and drink that just lacks some education. But all this is shifting, and as people - generally we're bright enough to like the taste of real things - well, we are slowly being drawn to real wine and real food awareness just as we are to craft beer. There is a divide happening, despite the best efforts of market mainstreaming to keep us buying what we've been told to buy.

Belgian wrote:I don't think that's true all the time, certainly not in Europe where people more often 'live' their wine culture although maybe it's often true here. Canada/USA is very young. We have an extremely marketing-hypnotized culture, along with a generally crap sense of food and drink that just lacks some education. But all this is shifting, and as people - generally we're bright enough to like the taste of real things - well, we are slowly being drawn to real wine and real food awareness just as we are to craft beer. There is a divide happening, despite the best efforts of market mainstreaming to keep us buying what we've been told to buy.

I agree that things are improving, but because we are right in the middle of it all, we sometimes get blinded as to how small it still is.

3 new pubs opened in Regina over the last month. One even calls itself an "alehouse," yet the best beer offered at these 3 places is Guinness. All of them are packed and getting rave reviews. And we still have gobs of new chain restaurants opening... people are giddy with anticipation now that we are finally getting an Olive Garden.

Bytowner wrote:1) The flavours described are more about how much (was) shelled out, what the label looks like, where (they're) drinking, and how big of a prick (they) are than the actual flavours. And it's not a matter of harmlessly blogging about things or keeping a diary, this stuff is big business.

2) I don't think saying "mangos (with skins)" is the same as saying "yeah, that's absolute nonsense."

3) ...The post (is) clearly taking aim at competitions and the legitimacy of professional tasting.

4) ...A professional taster can't tell the difference between table wine and a sought after vintage or a white wine and a white wine with food colouring...It points to dishonesty and a massive scam.

As all of this pertains to wine, it is indeed troubling and suggests that so-called pro reviews should be taken with more than a grain of salt (esp. if advertising pressures, payola are involved). But I don't believe the article has much relevance to craft beer and free user-driven aggregate sites like BA and RB. I think the average beer geek - however experienced or newbish they may be - makes an honest attempt to describe what they're tasting and, besides the odd user who "reaches" for strange descriptors, most of the reviews reflect that. In the case of competitions, I seriously doubt we'll ever see a panel of BJCP judges confuse a porter with a food-dyed pale lager, but maybe I'll be proven wrong one day.

cratez wrote:I seriously doubt we'll ever see a panel of BJCP judges confuse a porter with a food-dyed pale lager, but maybe I'll be proven wrong one day.

Oh, I don't know. Watched a show the other day were 2 beers geeks/collectors pitted their wits against each other. The final showdown was a blind beer tasting. Beers to be tasted were a Light Lager, Pilsner, Cream Ale, Hefeweizen and a Stout. One guy got all 5 wrong; he thought a Hefe was a Stout, and a Stout the cream ale!!!! The other contestant got 2 right; the light lager & the pilsner.

Granted they weren't BJCP judges, but still...............WTF??????

Torontoblue wrote:

cratez wrote:I seriously doubt we'll ever see a panel of BJCP judges confuse a porter with a food-dyed pale lager, but maybe I'll be proven wrong one day.

Oh, I don't know. Watched a show the other day were 2 beers geeks/collectors pitted their wits against each other. The final showdown was a blind beer tasting. Beers to be tasted were a Light Lager, Pilsner, Cream Ale, Hefeweizen and a Stout. One guy got all 5 wrong; he thought a Hefe was a Stout, and a Stout the cream ale!!!! The other contestant got 2 right; the light lager & the pilsner.

Granted they weren't BJCP judges, but still...............WTF??????

That is an old show, and those 2 idiots are brewerania collectors, not beer geeks.

So...I studied poetry quite extensively (I have a MA in English, which totally pays the bills ) and have published the odd piece in my old life, including a book.

I'm not that good, by any means - but I find that poetry and food/beer/wine reviews share some commonality:

Good reviews, like good poetry, use concrete language, and bad poetry/reviews use abstract language. So "Leather" is actually good, because we all know how leather smells. Bruised cherries is overly flowery, because it's just plain more visual than aromatic. "over-ripe cherries" may be a better descriptor.

Also, "charred toffee" is redundant because toffee is already caramelized. Does the reviewer mean "dark toffee?" And if so, who has tasted toffee of varying shades?