The Bar Towel

PeenSteen wrote:Ontario brewers would get the love Hill Farmstead gets if they could brew like Hill Farmstead. Nobody is going to travel and line up for "pretty good" beers.

Make no mistake, HF is great but hype drives a lot of the interest. Right out of the gate people were glowing about the beer, the personality of the brewer, the odd location, etc. which in turn fuelled the overall perception of them. And don't think that it wasn't Vermonters themselves promoting how 'they' had such a great new brewery in their own backyard.

We need to hold ourselves to a high standard of quality for sure. But when the 'best' Ontario beer is #34 IN CANADA (looking at RB), and who knows where that would rank overall (#50 on top list is 4.15, top Ontario is 3.84), that indicates that either Ontario doesn't have beer that can 'compete' with the top ones, or we aren't good at valuing our homegrown beer. It's probably a bit of both, but as brewers in Ontario get better and better, I suspect it's a bit more of the latter.

Cass wrote:

PeenSteen wrote:Ontario brewers would get the love Hill Farmstead gets if they could brew like Hill Farmstead. Nobody is going to travel and line up for "pretty good" beers.

Make no mistake, HF is great but hype drives a lot of the interest. Right out of the gate people were glowing about the beer, the personality of the brewer, the odd location, etc. which in turn fuelled the overall perception of them. And don't think that it wasn't Vermonters themselves promoting how 'they' had such a great new brewery in their own backyard.

We need to hold ourselves to a high standard of quality for sure. But when the 'best' Ontario beer is #34 IN CANADA (looking at RB), and who knows where that would rank overall (#50 on top list is 4.15, top Ontario is 3.84), that indicates that either Ontario doesn't have beer that can 'compete' with the top ones, or we aren't good at valuing our homegrown beer. It's probably a bit of both, but as brewers in Ontario get better and better, I suspect it's a bit more of the latter.

If you want to talk about hype driving interest, I think Bellwoods qualifies. Especially in terms of interest from the outside. Which isn't to say they don't make excellent beers, but every time I talk with someone out of province about what they want to get from Ontario they talk about Bellwoods, when for my money I prefer hoppy offerings from Great Lakes and malty offerings from Nickelbrook.

I mean I still head over for almost all of their releases and I'm hoarding my stash of BOYD like a secret family, I'm just saying they way they're hyped it's as if they're clearly ahead of the other brewers in Ontario, where I would probably lump them into the top tier of 4 or so.

Also, I find the RB top 50 for Canada awfully confusing. Lots of the Quebec brews are rated higher than I would put them.

squeaky wrote:

Cass wrote:

PeenSteen wrote:Ontario brewers would get the love Hill Farmstead gets if they could brew like Hill Farmstead. Nobody is going to travel and line up for "pretty good" beers.

Make no mistake, HF is great but hype drives a lot of the interest. Right out of the gate people were glowing about the beer, the personality of the brewer, the odd location, etc. which in turn fuelled the overall perception of them. And don't think that it wasn't Vermonters themselves promoting how 'they' had such a great new brewery in their own backyard.

We need to hold ourselves to a high standard of quality for sure. But when the 'best' Ontario beer is #34 IN CANADA (looking at RB), and who knows where that would rank overall (#50 on top list is 4.15, top Ontario is 3.84), that indicates that either Ontario doesn't have beer that can 'compete' with the top ones, or we aren't good at valuing our homegrown beer. It's probably a bit of both, but as brewers in Ontario get better and better, I suspect it's a bit more of the latter.

If you want to talk about hype driving interest, I think Bellwoods qualifies. Especially in terms of interest from the outside. Which isn't to say they don't make excellent beers, but every time I talk with someone out of province about what they want to get from Ontario they talk about Bellwoods, when for my money I prefer hoppy offerings from Great Lakes and malty offerings from Nickelbrook.

I mean I still head over for almost all of their releases and I'm hoarding my stash of BOYD like a secret family, I'm just saying they way they're hyped it's as if they're clearly ahead of the other brewers in Ontario, where I would probably lump them into the top tier of 4 or so.

Totally agree. I think Bellwoods is the closest there is in Ontario to the type of talk that you see with the 'hot' US craft guys. And good on them (and us for the support)!

No accounting for taste. I don't think Bellwoods on Ossington would have that level interest OR hype if they weren't at a their quality level (I compare them a little to DDC). To me that's immediate and striking, how their beers stand out - and similarly, the Indie Ale House in the Junction. Speaking as one who doesn't even particularly care for BWB Roman Candle IPA. Bellwoods also can't help the location being popular for what they do.

And I'd say Great Lakes (Ont) is somewhere farther down my own list of likes, personally I find them uneven. For 'hoppy offerings' there's usually just better, but that's just me. When Red Racer and Founders Centennial got here i freaked out. GL may be still getting to that same magic place (if Nickel Brook doesn't get there first, hah.) (Gimme the Winter Ale though!)

Individual beers deserve the respect, not where we got them. Hills Farmstead appears to get the latter, though I wouldn't know.

To be perfectly honest, while I like Indie, I have never considered them to be in the top tier of Ontario brewers. They've never had a release that I have even briefly considered lining up for, nor have they had anything I've wanted a bottle of to cellar. They have had a few things I've very much wanted to try at festivals, but that's about all I can say. Which shouldn't be taken as a criticism, it just puts them outside of my Ontario top 4 (which is Amsterdam, Great Lakes, Bellwoods and Nickelbrook)

For hoppy offerings I just can't get past the trifecta of Crazy Canuck. Lake Effect and Audrey Hopburn. They fill the gaps of easy-drinking, IPA and more complex belgian quite nicely to my taste. If you're more of a Immodest, 10 bitter years, Witchshark or whatever fan (I just named my favourites, there are lots of good hoppy ales in Ontario) that's fine, but I would hope that anyone could at least acknowledge that Great Lakes know their way around a hoppy ale. Keep in mind I'm talking only Ontario brews, fresh Red Racer and Centennial are both great and I won't ever say otherwise. Heck, I'd go for a fresh Green Flash over anything brewed in Ontario or anywhere in Canada, for that matter.

On the point of Hill Farmstead, I have to say that they are the exception where the beer is absolutely worth the praise and the hype. I brought back three hoppy ales the one time I visited and I would rank them 1-3, all ahead of Heady Topper for hoppy beers I've ever had. Which is incredible, because Heady Topped is amazing, you know? They really are one of the few brewers I do respect on brand name alone, rather than on specific brews.

squeaky wrote: On the point of Hill Farmstead, I have to say that they are the exception where the beer is absolutely worth the praise and the hype. I brought back three hoppy ales the one time I visited and I would rank them 1-3, all ahead of Heady Topper for beer I want to drink. Which is incredible, because Heady Topped is amazing, you know? They really are one of the few brewers I do respect on brand name alone, rather than on specific brews.

I couldn't agree more. They live up to the hype and not just with their hoppy beers.

squeaky wrote:To be perfectly honest, while I like Indie, I have never considered them to be in the top tier of Ontario brewers. They've never had a release that I have even briefly considered lining up for, nor have they had anything I've wanted a bottle of to cellar. They have had a few things I've very much wanted to try at festivals, but that's about all I can say. Which shouldn't be taken as a criticism, it just puts them outside of my Ontario top 4 (which is Amsterdam, Great Lakes, Bellwoods and Nickelbrook)

One thing I give a lot of credit to Indie for is the pure breadth of beer styles they have on at any given time, with very few duds. All are good to great. One thing I fault with Bellwoods is that all their beers have a similar quality to them. Plus, Indie always has sours on tap (two at the moment!). I think the only reason Indie doesn't get more buzz is because its located somewhat outside of hipster mecca.

For hoppy offerings I just can't get past the trifecta of Crazy Canuck. Lake Effect and Audrey Hopburn. They fill the gaps of easy-drinking, IPA and more complex belgian quite nicely to my taste. If you're more of a Immodest, 10 bitter years, Witchshark or whatever fan (I just named my favourites, there are lots of good hoppy ales in Ontario) that's fine, but I would hope that anyone could at least acknowledge that Great Lakes know their way around a hoppy ale. Keep in mind I'm talking only Ontario brews, fresh Red Racer and Centennial are both great and I won't ever say otherwise. Heck, I'd go for a fresh Green Flash over anything brewed in Ontario or anywhere in Canada, for that matter.

Ontario's getting pretty good, but its still tough to say any local beers can really compete with the best of our immediate US neighbours (HF, 3F, Bells, Founders, Jolly Pumpkin, etc etc).

Although I liked the Double Tempest a hell of a lot more than Dark Lord!

A wrote:One thing I give a lot of credit to Indie for is the pure breadth of beer styles they have on at any given time, with very few duds. All are good to great. One thing I fault with Bellwoods is that all their beers have a similar quality to them. Plus, Indie always has sours on tap (two at the moment!). I think the only reason Indie doesn't get more buzz is because its located somewhat outside of hipster mecca.

Yes Idie's sleepy Junction location, plus the absence of hooplah and their lack of special bottle releases has kept the buzz aroud IAH a bit quiet. But they seem to be gearing up their brewing and barrel-aging like crazy, and have produced some legit heavy-hitters and just good amazing unique beers... so bottlings and accolades are inevitable. The "breadth in beer styles" you speak of - plus the undeniable quality - makes them a standout to watch for.

I'm shocked when I visit IAH how much i've been missing. It is very 'indie' of Alehouse that you just have to know them to know them. So far.

Squeaky I can't deny Great Lakes ONT know their way around hoppy ales, I just find their 'brewing taste' is more dry, lean and sharp rather than mellow, peachy and 3-dimensional with IPAs etc. All hop ales can be bitter, it's whatever else they've got going on that sets the special ones apart, and our likes differ. This type of disagreement is, I think, normal concerning 'best' hoppy beers... and i'm sure GL must have done one or two 'peachy 3D' style cask ales or something I've enjoyed in the past.