The Bar Towel

Coronaeus wrote:To add fuel to the fire, one great thing about these barrel aged releases from Bellwoods is that even if you buy your 4-8 limit and don't like the first of the bottles you try, you can rest assured that you will be able to trade the others for great stuff without much problem. The list of things that I have received in return for BA Bellwoods beers is fairly impressive, both in terms of rarity, and price. I mean, I've received bottles with $30+ price tags for $12 Bellwoods bottles. I suppose this might be why I don't seem to ever blink at the price.

I concur with regards to trading Bellwoods. I've traded for all kinds of great stuff. Took some to Portland and took home some rare de Garde and Block 15.

Bellwood's can charge whatever they want and people can choose to buy it or not buy it. I do think that Bellwood's is making a killing in profits. They decided to massively expand their brewery after being open less than three years. You only do that if you are making a killing.

Additionally, Dieu Du Ciel is releasing Barrel aged beers this weekend. $4 per 341 ml bottle. That is less than half the price of Bellwood's barrel aged beers per ml. Do Dieu Du Ciel barrels cost less? No. Do Dieu Du Ciel ingredients cost less? No. They might have savings due to economy of scale and rent, however, this does not equal a greater than 50% reduction in price.

It's been a little over a year since Bellwoods posted a picture on the Skeleton Key ingredients on their Instagram. I'm curious when that will be released and how fast it will sell compared to the recent BA releases.

BakaGaijin wrote:
Additionally, Dieu Du Ciel is releasing Barrel aged beers this weekend. $4 per 341 ml bottle. That is less than half the price of Bellwood's barrel aged beers per ml. Do Dieu Du Ciel barrels cost less? No. Do Dieu Du Ciel ingredients cost less? No. They might have savings due to economy of scale and rent, however, this does not equal a greater than 50% reduction in price.

where do you think the expense in brewing comes from?
it's 100% economy of scale.
Bellwoods is using a non-production kit to make production beer.
Dieu du Ciel has two breweries (or are they up to 3?). their brewpub may have a kit the same size as Bellwoods.
plus, Mtl rent is half of Toronto's rent.

that's your price difference. not greed. Economy of scale.

atomeyes wrote:

BakaGaijin wrote:
Additionally, Dieu Du Ciel is releasing Barrel aged beers this weekend. $4 per 341 ml bottle. That is less than half the price of Bellwood's barrel aged beers per ml. Do Dieu Du Ciel barrels cost less? No. Do Dieu Du Ciel ingredients cost less? No. They might have savings due to economy of scale and rent, however, this does not equal a greater than 50% reduction in price.

where do you think the expense in brewing comes from?
it's 100% economy of scale.
Bellwoods is using a non-production kit to make production beer.
Dieu du Ciel has two breweries (or are they up to 3?). their brewpub may have a kit the same size as Bellwoods.
plus, Mtl rent is half of Toronto's rent.

that's your price difference. not greed. Economy of scale.

I respectfully disagree with your reasoning. Did you read the Huffpost piece about why craft beer costs so much?

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/craft-be ... 70015.html

Over 50% of the price is distributor mark up and retailer mark up. Bellwood's has essentially zero distributor and retailer mark up. That money goes into their pockets.

I guess we won't truly know unless they publish there financials. Until then, I'll continue to believe that they be killin' it.

BakaGaijin wrote:

atomeyes wrote:

BakaGaijin wrote:
I guess we won't truly know unless they publish there financials. Until then, I'll continue to believe that they be killin' it.

Why would they publish their financials? They are not a public company. Do you want to publish your personal finances?

TheSevenDuffs wrote:

[/quote][/quote]
Why would they publish their financials? They are not a public company. Do you want to publish your personal finances?[/quote]

Where did I ever say that I expect them to publish them?!? Of course they won't do that. My point was that we will never know what their profit margins are.

BakaGaijin wrote:
Where did I ever say that I expect them to publish them?!? Of course they won't do that. My point was that we will never know what their profit margins are.

methinks you don't know much about capitalism and the concept of risk vs reward when it comes to a start-up business.

but let's play your game for a minute. let's pretend Bellwoods (and let's ignore other breweries for now because, duh, non-fruit non-barrel-aged beer cost less to make but you're not bitching about $2.50 for a bottle of Boneshaker, which likely costs pennies to make) is making money hand over fist. guess you're not reading the news about their new facilities? that costs (wait for it) money to build. where's that money coming from?

Glad to see arguing over the merits of one BRAND vs another are no different in the beer community compared to the whisky community.

Beer is no different than any other BRAND in the economy. Pricing often has nothing to do with costs of production but with what fans of the brand are willing to pay compared to alternative brands! (one other big difference with other products is the AGCO, tax and other rules governing alcohol where minimum pricing come into play. also a brewery is not allowed to charge a different price than what the LCBO would charge)

I don't know the history, but it appears to me Bellwoods' brand is stronger than most, which explains why they are able to charge a premium over similar beers - some arguably of better quality.

portwood wrote:Glad to see arguing over the merits of one BRAND vs another are no different in the beer community compared to the whisky community.

Beer is no different than any other BRAND in the economy. Pricing often has nothing to do with costs of production but with what fans of the brand are willing to pay compared to alternative brands! (one other big difference with other products is the AGCO, tax and other rules governing alcohol where minimum pricing come into play. also a brewery is not allowed to charge a different price than what the LCBO would charge)

I don't know the history, but it appears to me Bellwoods' brand is stronger than most, which explains why they are able to charge a premium over similar beers - some arguably of better quality.

You went from a silly comment earlier, to a coherent and spot on assessment that I totally agree with. Good stuff!

atomeyes wrote:

BakaGaijin wrote:
Where did I ever say that I expect them to publish them?!? Of course they won't do that. My point was that we will never know what their profit margins are.

That money for the new facilities came from the bank. I don't care why Bellwood's charges what they do. They can charge whatever they like and consumers can choose to pay it or not. My only point is that I suspect their profit margins are quite high. I enjoy their products in general and try everything they put out, but I don't drink their products on a regular basis because much of their line-up doesn't represent good value to me. Let's look at your concerns about cost of Barrel aging and cherries. De Leite Cuvee Soeur'ise was recently at the LCBO for nearly half the price of Bellwood's special releases. De Leite is a smaller brewery than Bellwood's (they use a 6 hectolitre system), Cuvee Soeur'ise was aged in barrels, has cherries, travelled across the Atlantic, had an agent and the LCBO take a cut, and was still nearly half the price of Bellwood's. That is good value.

Where the discussion got irrelevant is presuming Bellwoods' profit margins, sorry but whose business is that and who cares? They are not an a mission to prove they are not making more than DDC on BA releases, only to make cool products people are happy to enjoy. Bellwoods are clearly not DDC-like in scale & can't practically give stuff away (thank you Dieu du Ciel!)

We've established a reasonable argument that certain Bellwoods beers do have a high intrinsic value & they even have a real-world value comparable to some more expensive stuff. We should envy us.

Bellwoods / Trillium Brewing teasing us with this tweet showing 2016 Skeleton Key and what appears to be Barn Owl #3.



I say Barn Owl #3 because the label colour is a bit lighter than the red of Barn Owl 1 (more like a peach colour, which makes sense given it's made with peaches) and the first couple words on the label are "Mixed fermentation," and it was described at Cask Days as a "Mixed Fermentation Farmouse Ale w. Ontario Peaches."

I've never even heard of Bellwoods but it seems to be the most popular thread on the Bar towel.

I'm rarely in Toronto these days. Do they have anything at the LCBO/TBS or bars outside of TO?

Cheers

skootles wrote:Bellwoods / Trillium Brewing teasing us with this tweet showing 2016 Skeleton Key and what appears to be Barn Owl #3.



I say Barn Owl #3 because the label colour is a bit lighter than the red of Barn Owl 1 (more like a peach colour, which makes sense given it's made with peaches) and the first couple words on the label are "Mixed fermentation," and it was described at Cask Days as a "Mixed Fermentation Farmouse Ale w. Ontario Peaches."

Saw the Bellwoods retweet and thought the same thing. I'm assuming it's the Bellwoods guys down in Boston right now, rather than the Trillium guys up here. Maybe others know more specifically. I know breweries visit other breweries all the time just for some adventure, but I really hope this means some sort of collab between the two is coming in the near future.

^^^^
That post was from California. I assume they are both there for the RateBeer awards. Bellwood's and Trillium were both named Top 100 brewers in the world.

http://www.ratebeer.com/RateBeerBest/Be ... ld2016.asp