The Bar Towel

Belgian wrote: The other side is if servers have a rough year with poor tips, they are STILL expected to remit taxes for a PRESUMED minimum amount of cash tips they did not even earn - this is the government robbing from the poor.

Are you sure about that? I have heard that talked about before where they assume you make a baseline level of tips but I wasn't sure. I did some quick googling and it looks like in Canada at least you only have to pay taxes on the tips you actually make. But I am not an accountant so I could be wrong.

http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tx/hm/xplnd/tps-eng.html

Kel Varnsen wrote:

Belgian wrote: The other side is if servers have a rough year with poor tips, they are STILL expected to remit taxes for a PRESUMED minimum amount of cash tips they did not even earn - this is the government robbing from the poor.

Are you sure about that? I have heard that talked about before where they assume you make a baseline level of tips but I wasn't sure. I did some quick googling and it looks like in Canada at least you only have to pay taxes on the tips you actually make. But I am not an accountant so I could be wrong.

http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tx/hm/xplnd/tps-eng.html

Hey Kel appreciate that, I should check my facts for myself because that was hearsay.

Kel Varnsen wrote:

Belgian wrote: The other side is if servers have a rough year with poor tips, they are STILL expected to remit taxes for a PRESUMED minimum amount of cash tips they did not even earn - this is the government robbing from the poor.

Are you sure about that? I have heard that talked about before where they assume you make a baseline level of tips but I wasn't sure. I did some quick googling and it looks like in Canada at least you only have to pay taxes on the tips you actually make. But I am not an accountant so I could be wrong.

http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tx/hm/xplnd/tps-eng.html

Find me one bartender/waiter in Canada who actually reports the tips they make on their tax return? Good luck with the search! lol

Derek wrote: tipping on the tax. IMHO, this makes no sense. You'd effectively be tipping less in places where the taxes were lower, and more wherever the taxes are higher. I don't think it should be tied to the governments grab.

I agree, but have long tipped 20% on top of tax anyway because a) 99% of the time I pay with debit or credit on machines that calculate the tip as a percentage of the total bill (i.e. tax included) and b) have just assumed that tipping like this was the norm among other patrons.

But if most people on here are saying that they never tip on top of tax and still manage to receive decent to good service at their local(s), I'm gonna stop forking over more than I need to.

Side note: how sad is it that I've been to 200+ bars, brewpubs, and breweries and am only now coming to this realization (thanks to everyone's posts)?

Derek wrote:Tipping $2 for a draft beer. That's a 25% tip on an $8 pint. Then at the other extreme, some people don't tip on drinks? Is there no standard social convention?

As far as I'm concerned 15% is still the standard social convention, however some are pushing for 20%. I suspect servers and ex-servers.

I'll do what I please though.

The very low to non-tippers, unless service was terrible, are deadbeats, IMO.

cratez wrote:...have long tipped 20% on top of tax anyway because a) 99% of the time I pay with debit or credit on machines that calculate the tip as a percentage of the total bill (i.e. tax included) ... how sad is it that I've been to 200+ bars, brewpubs, and breweries and am only now coming to this realization (thanks to everyone's posts)?

One, that's criminal to auto-calculate tips on gross, you were really paying 35 to 38% tip on the net.

Two ^ at least so far you've only overpaid (perhaps) some hundreds $ and not a lifetime's worth, several thousand.

Three, I agree it really doesn't necessarily make a better bar or resto experience to always over-tip (we must all retire one day.)

Could you break down the math on how you arrived at it being a 35-38% tip on the net? From what I could figure if he was tipping 15-20% on the gross it would be like he was tipping 16.95-22.6% on the net. There's a difference if you tip on the tax but it's not gigantic.

Belgian wrote: One, that's criminal to auto-calculate tips on gross, you were really paying 35 to 38% tip on the net. 

Charchuk wrote:Could you break down the math on how you arrived at it...

He can't, because it's entirely false.

To start, I'm going to use the terminology that I see any time I get a bill: SUBTOTAL and TOTAL.
If I'm misunderstanding the terms NET and GROSS applying to those values respectively, stop me here.

Im not super good with accounting jargon and all this, but numbers I'm generally OK with.

The thing that tipped me off is that there would be no range. The percentage on the subtotal, given that you always tip the same on the TOTAL, would be the same.

So I wrote a 5 minute program to prove just that. Lo and behold, the figures don't matter, 20% on total == 22.6% on the SUBTOTAL. That's it. Always.

***Note: Im assuming Ontario, and 13% sales tax (as corroborated by a few receipts I have kicking around).

Though I shouldn't have to tell you that, you can do the math with those percentages to find out the tax rate, since:

2.60/20*100 = ...

13!

From what I could figure if he was tipping 15-20% on the gross it would be like he was tipping 16.95-22.6% on the net. There's a difference if you tip on the tax but it's not gigantic.

Exactly correct.

20% tip on a tax-in total is about 35%+ over the subtotal extra.
BUT ITS STILL ONLY 20% TIP.
The 35%+ more you pay does not go into your service's pocket. Don't call it a tip. Only part of it is.

Kamera is correct. Don't drink and use a calculator. Should 1.13 x 1.20 then deduct the tax amount from the difference from net.

Belgian wrote:

cratez wrote:...have long tipped 20% on top of tax anyway because a) 99% of the time I pay with debit or credit on machines that calculate the tip as a percentage of the total bill (i.e. tax included) ... how sad is it that I've been to 200+ bars, brewpubs, and breweries and am only now coming to this realization (thanks to everyone's posts)?

One, that's criminal to auto-calculate tips on gross, you were really paying 35 to 38% tip on the net.

Two ^ at least so far you've only overpaid (perhaps) some hundreds $ and not a lifetime's worth, several thousand.

Three, I agree it really doesn't necessarily make a better bar or resto experience to always over-tip (we must all retire one day.)

I've pretty much done the same that Mike's been doing, but now I'm feeling like I've been over-tipping for ever...

Belgian wrote:Kamera is correct. Don't drink and use a calculator. Should 1.13 x 1.20 then deduct the tax amount from the difference from net.

Don't drink and be cheap.

BEER IS A LUXURY SPEND. Not a necessity.

Poking and prodding at tip logic? STAY HOME.

Whatever math you are doing.... in the end its called karma.

Tip appropriately for your service.

No FEUO thinking about it I can support the 'auto-tip' 15% over gross because I usually tip more than 15% anyway (if service was not outstandingly bad). This isn't a conversation about being heartless, it is about quality of (VS irritating) experience whatever way tax and tip are factored in.

People with payment cards also have the option of entering a specific tip amount or a grand total. In practice I usually tip separately in cash.

FEUO wrote:
Whatever math you are doing.... in the end its called karma.

yes, good ol' scientific karma. almost as tried, tested and true as using a calculated percentage of the pre-tax total.

the elephant in the room: service is sub-par. how much do you tip. or WHY do you tip?

distr0 wrote:Why Tipping Should Be Banned -

Nice!