The Bar Towel

Rob Creighton wrote:

GregClow wrote:idle speculation and dire predictions?

I thought that was what the internet was for???

Well no, it's only half dire predction & half wishful pie-in-the-sky thinking, in equal quantities that cancel each other out.

downtown drinker wrote:Just a question: Where are all these German-style pilsners that you all talk about? Certainly nothing brewed in Ontario qualifies, and beyond Bitburger in the can and Wernesgruner if you stretch it, I can't think of much out there in that crisp, quenching, thin-malt-heavy-hop northern German style.

Also, has anyone called the office inertiaboy posted and asked where they're getting their beer brewed? Maybe, as JerCraigs says, they're not trying to hide it at all...

The two you mentionned are german pilsners - from the fatherland. There are a few others as well, some available at the LCBO and on tap - such as Warsteiner and ocasionally Löwenbrau. There are few true german styled pilsners brewed in Ontario. Millstreet brews a good octoberfest and their Organic is akin to Beck's which actually would fall into the (Old?) BJCP classification of a North German Pils. Stratford brews an interesting product, though it is much closer to the Czek pils.

Most of the other lagers mentionned in other people's thread, though good, don't appear to be trying to approximate the german or czek classic styles. Andechs from Brick should be a helles, though I have unfortunately never had it - only sold in select Beerstores where I don't shop. I heard that their aniversary beer last year was an excellent pils, though again, I did not have the chance to try it.

If we widen the scope of the thread, good bock is available from Millstreet and Brick makes a reasonable interpreation as well.

You can get Hacker-Pschorr's excellent edelhell in some locations in Ont. There are pockets and when I see it bottled I buy a couple cases if the dates are relatively fresh. Also, if you like the more mellow and malty Saltzburg golden lagers, Stiegl is available sporodically in select locations. When all fails, the original Munich export Lowenbrau is a standard Munich helles that is more widely available. Outsdide of these few and feeble impoerts there is no longer a helles or Dortmunder brewed in Ontario.

Pilsners: there are many but King Pils is about as close to Urquell/Budvar as you can get.

Ontario bocks are limited to Creemore's seasonal ( not overly complex) and the Trafalger which is very drinkable but thin on body.

Walkerville red is a Canadianized version of a Vienna, St. Andre's doesn't even get near the style profile.

King makes a decent enough dunkel. Brick makes a watery non distinct attempt at a Schwarzbier

Most micro lagers in the Ontario market are some kind of variation on German or North American styles ( Creemore, Neustadt, etc.)

But, as you say dhurtubise, the German styles are under represented and in the 300 brand commercial market there is nothing near a proper traditional German lager. Munich hell is an underappreciated style and one where there are few fine examples.

dhurtubise wrote: The two you mentionned are german pilsners - from the fatherland. There are a few others as well, some available at the LCBO and on tap - such as Warsteiner and ocasionally Löwenbrau. There are few true german styled pilsners brewed in Ontario. Millstreet brews a good octoberfest and their Organic is akin to Beck's which actually would fall into the (Old?) BJCP classification of a North German Pils. Stratford brews an interesting product, though it is much closer to the Czek pils.

Löwenbrau is a helles, not a pilsner, surely, and I'd personally characterize Warsteiner and Becks as continental pilsners in the same vein as Stella, rather than true northern German pilsners. Stratford isn't even close to the German style.

There are times I'd give my left little toe for a fresh Jever.[/code]

dhurtubise wrote: The two you mentionned are german pilsners - from the fatherland. There are a few others as well, some available at the LCBO and on tap - such as Warsteiner and ocasionally Löwenbrau. There are few true german styled pilsners brewed in Ontario. Millstreet brews a good octoberfest and their Organic is akin to Beck's which actually would fall into the (Old?) BJCP classification of a North German Pils. Stratford brews an interesting product, though it is much closer to the Czek pils.

downtown drinker wrote: Löwenbrau is a helles, not a pilsner, surely, and I'd personally characterize Warsteiner and Becks as continental pilsners in the same vein as Stella, rather than true northern German pilsners.

I'm not sure by what style guidelines you are refering - certainly not the BJCP which as I indicated was what I was basing my comments on. There has never been a continental pilsner in these guidelines - old or new. Löwenbrau, Warsteiner and Becks all fell into the old North German pilsner catagory - now renamed simply german pilsner. Threre is much of variation allowed within the style in terms of dryness and finishing hops. Anyway the bottom line is, no matter how you slice it, they're german pilsners. A beer doesn't have to be as good as Jever for that.

Lowenbrau and Warsteiner have very similar profiles. Neither are malty enough to be considered a helles. Stella is very different than these two as well - being brewed with ajunts, thinner in body, dryer and more carbonated. Though becks has a flavour profile that can be tentatively compared with Stella Artois, it is much closer to a beer such as Bittburger.

downtown drinker wrote: Stratford isn't even close to the German style.

There are times I'd give my left little toe for a fresh Jever.[/code]

If you read the post properly, you will see that we agree on this.

Anyways, good to find another who apreciates good lager.

Welcome to the Bartowel.

What do you guys who are lovers of German lagers (I am not, particularly) think of Headstrong's attempt at Munich Helles?

midlife crisis wrote:What do you guys who are lovers of German lagers (I am not, particularly) think of Headstrong's attempt at Munich Helles?

Its a good ( highly drinkable) new-style north American micro lager ( has some sharp edges put in by the brewer on purpose)...similar in profile to Creemore or a California common...very hoppy and malty but not a Munich style by a long shot...although I do like it and will buy it regularly as a session lager.

Munich lagers are mellow, smooth, medium-light in body and range from sweet to balanced and have subtle herbal/cidery'lemony characterists and of course that unmistakable bready-caramel Munich malt spine.

Headstrong has some sharp ale character to it much like a steam beer.....calling it a helles is a misnomer it's too heavy in malts and too defined in hops....although it is good beer.

midlife crisis wrote: I do like it and will buy it regularly as a session lager.

Exactly. I quite enjoyed it as a summertime session beer, but not for much more. It was clean, refreshing, and had enough hop and malt character to make it a decent quaffing beer without being overly boring. I think that everybody has made it clear that it's far from being a helles, but it is an excellent lager.

I will purposely try the Munich Lager again in a month because it's too new to say, but that hard edge I don't really like.

As Vienna Lager goes, Belle Guelle Originale is sold at the Beer Store - a soft, mildly spicy easy-drinker I occasionally enjoy in hot weather. Reminds me of eating Tarte Lapín in the Lower Town, Quebec City...

Saint-André was a fairly good Indie when it appeared long ago, Cool makes it now of course.

Belgian wrote:I will purposely try the Munich Lager again in a month because it's too new to say, but that hard edge I don't really like.

Some like that "hard edge" it has sold a lot of Creemore and California common/Steam beer

As Vienna Lager goes, Belle Guelle Originale is sold at the Beer Store - a soft, mildly spicy easy-drinker I occasionally enjoy in hot weather. Reminds me of eating Tarte Lapín in the Lower Town, Quebec City...

Saint-André was a fairly good Indie when it appeared long ago, Cool makes it now of course.

Unfortaunately both Brews are misnomers...they are more like a Canadian version of a Dortmunder export lager....Viennas are reddish from judicial use of lightly toasted Vienna malts...the predominemt feature should be toasty- caramel malt but it should be subtle, lightly sweet and noble hops attenuated. A smooth malt-complex, delicate lager which only becomes properly complex with the use of carbonate-rich water.

Don't get me wrong here Belgian, I buy the odd pack of Belle Guelle...it's a good all malt thirst quenching beer for summer...it just isn't a Vienna lager. The closest thing you have in the Ontario market to a true Vienna is a macro dumbed down version by Dos Equis.

Quebec Micros and brew pubs have made some fair traditional Viennas but the only one I know of that is widely distriubted in bottles is Les Trois Mousquetaires Aramis.

State side Great Lakes Eliot Ness is a good Vienna rendition...Next time I have access to it I will be bringing a couple of cases back with me ( damn the expense)...when done right, Vienna is really tastey quaffable stuff.

Vienna lager is such a rare and neglected style that not many brewers remain that can recreate it properly in the traditional profile that Anton Dreher made popular....it was/is a beer style that is expensive to make, hard to source materials for and hard to improve on or innovate...plus much of the original expertise in brewing the style does not remain in written records and has been lost in the mists of time....Seems the style is so nebulous that some Canadian brewers seem to think "vienna" is some kind of upscale-continental marketing buzz word to slap on common sweet golden/pale lagers.

Apolgies for getting to this thread late, but I just can't resist wading into a style debate. With regards to the northern German pilsner issue, surely Lowenbrau, a beer still brewed in the heart of Munich, qualifies as a helles and not a pils. And as for there being no BJCP guidelines for continental pilsner, the single most popular and prominent beer style in Europe, and their continental equivalent of our North American lager, I have to say that demonstrates more the failing of the BJCP than it does the state of European brewing. To class Becks as a German-style pils is like saying Bass is a textbook British pale ale -- at one point in time, yes, it was, but it hasn't been for quite a while.

As for Vienna lager, a style which, incidentally, scarely exists any more in Austria, if at all, St. Andre was certainly a good example when it was introduced, far better than Dos Equis, at least. So was Belle Gueule original. I haven't had either for some time, but it's my opinion that they were both very much in style during their heyday.

Let the debate continue...

I think an argument can be made that Becks, Warsteiner and similar beers are a relatively new type stylistically, almost a national style which incorporate (therefore) elements of different local styles. While Germany had no national or at least widely distributed brands until recently, that has changed. One element of the change is more widely available price beers (maybe stimulated by the integration of the former East Germany). Another is the seeming trend to a national premium taste as typified by good quality but lighter style beers like Becks and Warsteiner which are hard to classify stylistically. This in a country famous for hewing to regional and local styles. Fortunately there's enough of the latter to please traditionalists (see the report in the current AAB magazine, Steve Beaumont has excellent contributions there).

Gary

I dusted off a can of 18-month Bitburger Pils I had been avoiding in my fridge since Christmas of 2004. One of those 'gift beers.'

It was still fine, and I admired its basic quality for such a massively-produced beer. Really not bad. Reminded me of a time when I drank mostly lagers & appreciated the often wonderful little distinctions between them.

pootz wrote:

Belgian wrote:I will purposely try the Munich Lager again in a month because it's too new to say, but that hard edge I don't really like.

Some like that "hard edge" it has sold a lot of Creemore and California common/Steam beer

To me the Creemore has a 'rounder' hard edge! I love that mineral (?) aspect. I could drink snappin'-fresh Creemore at the cottage all day, but the Headstrong Munich... well let's just see, I certainly believe in the potential.

Belgian wrote:

pootz wrote:

Belgian wrote:I will purposely try the Munich Lager again in a month because it's too new to say, but that hard edge I don't really like.

Some like that "hard edge" it has sold a lot of Creemore and California common/Steam beer

To me the Creemore has a 'rounder' hard edge! I love that mineral (?) aspect. I could drink snappin'-fresh Creemore at the cottage all day, but the Headstrong Munich... well let's just see, I certainly believe in the potential.

Creemore has an ale character - that is the edge many of you are talking about. I somewhat doubt it is brewed with a lager yeast despite their claim of being ... a lager.