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Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2007 6:19 pm
by HogTownHarry
Before I disappear for another year (and piss anyone off or god forbid speak my mind) I want to say I tried this again today at Volo - still acidic raw parmesan and bearing no resemblance whatsoever to any flemish sour ale I've ever smelled or tasted - BUT; significantly less puke/vomit/wino/headcheese aroma, borderline normal flemish sour flavour. But since apparently I drank it out of a Dixie cup at C'est What - not the way I remember it, but what do I know, evidently I'm wrong about everything - I suppose I'm not entitled to an opinion ... unless I change it to match Those Who Know Better.
Make this even 20% similar to Duchesse du Bourgonne and we'll talk. I'm buying a few bottles to lay down for a year when it's available because I DO believe in breadth of opinion and I really DO want to like this beer - but until then, I know wino / cheese addict puke when I smell it and my rating stands. Pains me to say it, but hey, I"m not BJCP accredited so my opinion obviously doesn't count anyway.
Bring on more Beau's Lug-Tread-Mistake-Beers - and until next Cask Days, over and out.
- Harry
Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2007 11:02 am
by detritus
I had this last night at Volo as well. Out of a pint glass, half full - no dixie cup for me.
I didn't get a strong vomit odour from it, just very strong cheese/yogurt on the nose. That carried through to the palate, though in diminished capacity. I actually found the taste quite bland, with not that much sourness. Certainly not remeniscient of any Flemish Sour I've ever had.
-Josh
Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2007 12:50 pm
by pootz
OK let's settle this. The guideline is not whether this stacks up to the blended expertise of "Duchesse du Bourgonne" or Petrus or Rodenbach...the key is simple... the brewer has stated it fits the BJCP guidlines for the style (young unblended sour brown) so here are the guidelines:
Aroma:
Complex combination of fruity esters and rich malt character. Esters commonly reminiscent of raisins, plums, figs, dates, black cherries or prunes. A malt character of caramel, toffee, orange, treacle or chocolate is also common. Spicy phenols can be present in low amounts for complexity. A sherry-like character may be present and generally denotes an aged example. A low sour aroma may be present, and can modestly increase with age but should not grow to a noticeable acetic/vinegary character. Hop aroma absent. Diacetyl is perceived only in very minor quantities, if at all, as a complementary aroma.
Appearance:
Dark reddish-brown to brown in color. Good clarity. Average to good head retention.
Taste:
Malty with fruity complexity and some caramelization character. Fruitiness commonly includes dark fruits such as raisins, plums, figs, dates, black cherries or prunes. A malt character of caramel, toffee, orange, treacle or chocolate is also common. Spicy phenols can be present in low amounts for complexity. A slight sourness often becomes more pronounced in well-aged examples, along with some sherry-like character, producing a "sweet-and-sour" profile. The sourness should not grow to a notable acetic/vinegary character. Hop flavor absent. Restrained hop bitterness. Low oxidation is appropriate as a point of complexity. Diacetyl is perceived only in very minor quantities, if at all, as a complementary flavor.
comments:
Long aging and blending of young and aged beer may occur, adding smoothness and complexity and balancing any harsh, sour character. A deeper malt character distinguishes these beers from Flanders red ales. This style was designed to lay down so examples with a moderate aged character are considered superior to younger examples. As in fruit lambics, Oud Bruin can be used as a base for fruit-flavored beers such as kriek (cherries) or frambozen (raspberries), though these should be entered in the classic-style fruit beer category. The Oud Bruin is less acetic and maltier than a Flanders Red, and the fruity flavors are more malt-oriented.
Ingredients:
A base of Pils malt with judicious amounts of crystal-type malts (CaraMunich and CaraVienne, typically) and sometimes a tiny bit of black or roast malt. May use some adjuncts (flaked maize, sugar). Low alpha acid continental or British hops are typical (avoid high alpha or distinctive American hops). Saccharomyces and Lactobacillus (and acetobacters) contribute to the fermentation and eventual flavor. Lactobacillus reacts poorly to elevated levels of alcohol. A sour mash or acidulated malt may also be used to develop the sour character without introducing Lactobacillus. Water high in carbonates is typical of its home region and will buffer the acidity of darker malts and the lactic sourness. Magnesium in the water accentuates the sourness.
I think that last guideline is important...it states that sour mash can be used in this style rather than lacto fermentation of post boil wort. I assume the large Flanders sour producers use the lacto wort fermentation method as opposed to the sour mash route. Seeing how most of us may have never come across a total sour mash brown ale...this will be a first time experience with that style of sour brown....OTOH the BJCP guide key seems to have no recall of aromas or flavors that approximate "cheese, or barf" the profile seems to be malty-sour-fruity. If you look at the BJCP guide for unblended lambics that description seems more appropriate to what BT tasters have experienced in this CK sour mash brown.
Very curious and obviously an anomaly...I have to try this and I HAVE to acquire some bottles to lay down in the cellar so we can continue this discussion when the beer has a year or so on it.
Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2007 3:58 pm
by pootz
HogTownHarry wrote:
Bring on more Beau's Lug-Tread-Mistake-Beers
- Harry
You liked the "Eis-Kolsch"
There were rumors this may be a yearly anniversary release in honor of the mistake that made Beau's great reputation
Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2007 8:15 pm
by JerCraigs
Sampled this again today and it was clearly not the same thing as what we sampled at Cest What. Its still not my favorite but it was a LOT more drinkable than the previous sample.
Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2007 11:11 pm
by tuqueboy
JerCraigs wrote:Sampled this again today and it was clearly not the same thing as what we sampled at Cest What. Its still not my favorite but it was a LOT more drinkable than the previous sample.
i'd agree with jeremy on that. still had a very peculiar aroma, but it wasn't quite as pronounced as the batch at c'est what.
Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 10:37 am
by tupalev
Hey folks - never say never I guess...just thought I would chime in on this one..
I was not at C'Est What, but I did try this at Volo Sunday. The keg must have been off at C'est What because what I had yesterday was not as described here or in the ratebeer ratings i have read.
The nose was certainly funky blue cheese - you either like it or you do not, there does not seem to be any middle ground here. No vomit though. I suspect the aroma is what has put everyone in a little beer tizzy, as the taste was actually pretty standard for the style. I saw some folks I respect from here and ratebeer going apeshit over the aroma yesterday, in a bad way, as if the smell turned them into some raging angry beer connoisseurs who had been offended by blue cheese. Settle down guys, everyone has an opinion...me, I like strong blue cheese, and I liked this aroma...
The taste was sour up front with a lot of malt sweetness - lots of wood and dark fruit notes as well. It was good, not great - I thought maybe the sweet/sour mix didn't quite achieve balance. And it looked great in the glass, very dark brown and a nice fluffy darker white head. A solid beer in my books and one which I will try again.
The whole point of my post it would seem is to recommend to the C'Est What samplers to give it another try sometime - I think you have all rated an infected sample. But that is just a guess on my part. While I have a fondness for Church Key because of their proximity to where I grew up, I do not have anything to do with them.
On a final note, it was great to see so many familiar faces over the weekend at Volo.
Cheers
Jeff
Beau's
Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 12:35 pm
by SteveB
I can only assume Harry was being facetious with the Beau's comment...here's his review of our beer:
HogTownHarry (2625), Toronto (Harbourfront), Ontario, Canada
Date: Aug 20, 2006
2.1 Aroma Appearance Flavor Palate Overall
4/10 3/5 4/10 2/5 8/20
Draught. At BeerBistro, 2006 Golden Tap Awards. Initially wasn’t going to rate this based on the story I heard about the genesis of this "Kölsch" - but if the brewer is going to keep trotting this out at festivals, I’m rating it. Yellow with a wisp of white head - vaguely smells of stale grainy malt and a stale herbal sort-of bitterness. The taste reminded me of a sort of punk-ass, semi-nasty, slightly herbal but mostly stale Gritstone knock-off - grainy, a little harsh, harsher on warming and a slightly ugly aftertaste. Acceptable body, grainy and fizzy - didn’t hate it as much at the end, but Lordy not a good beer - something’s not right. And kolsch? Yeah - and I’m a Patagonian sheep-herder ... * update: let me clarify - this beersickle IS interesting, but it’s neither a Kolsch nor a bock - it’s not awful, but I found it sort of harsh and boring - I never bought in to the "if life gives you lemons, make lemonade" pollyannaism.
...not sure why he's bringing it up, though.
We do have plans to reintroduce it, we're thinking of calling it Big Lug. We're also working on our first-ever seasonal that we're hoping will be pretty cool.
Cheers!
oh yeah
Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 4:23 pm
by SteveB
John,
Can you save me a bottle? Perhaps we can share one over a plate of pizzaghetti?
Cheers,
Steve
Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 7:26 pm
by pootz
tupalev wrote:Hey folks - never say never I guess...just thought I would chime in on this one..
The nose was certainly funky blue cheese - you either like it or you do not, there does not seem to be any middle ground here. No vomit though.
(...)
The taste was sour up front with a lot of malt sweetness - lots of wood and dark fruit notes as well.
It seems the "vomit comet" urban legend is exploded. As others tasting this a second time in other venues state, it was not as bad as the CW keg...which was probably off/contaminated.
If this beer has malty character and sour- dried/vinous fruitiness then it is in line with BJCP style category...the blue cheese nose is not in line but may be peculiar to a full sour mash method.
At any rate I'm glad some brewer gave the style a shot and I want to get some bottles cellared for sure to see what age does to it.
Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 10:13 pm
by tuqueboy
pootz wrote:
It seems the "vomit comet" urban legend is exploded. As others tasting this a second time in other venues state, it was not as bad as the CW keg...which was probably off/contaminated.
If this beer has malty character and sour- dried/vinous fruitiness then it is in line with BJCP style category...the blue cheese nose is not in line but may be peculiar to a full sour mash method.
At any rate I'm glad some brewer gave the style a shot and I want to get some bottles cellared for sure to see what age does to it.
pootz, not to belabour this already-overworked thread, but it wasn't an urban legend. it most certainly did have that smell at c'est what. it did have it, but in a somewhat muted form at volo. not as offensive, but the aroma was certainly not on style (not that i'm one to get all bent out of shape about a beer not being on style as long as it tastes good, mind you). again, as i've said to a few other folks before, kudos to john for trying, even if it wasn't exactly a classic.
Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 8:39 am
by Cass
pootz wrote:
It seems the "vomit comet" urban legend is exploded.
To echo tuqueboy, the C'est What version of this beer was certainly not an urban legend. It will be remembered, however, as
legendary.
Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 9:13 am
by sstackho
To add to the legend, an acquaintance (who isn't even much of a beer drinker) drank a whole pint of the C'est What version on the sampling night! You could smell it across the table. I got more stinky cheese out of the aroma than anything else (and I like stinky cheese...).
He did finish it, although with some complaint. That was fun to watch.
Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 9:26 am
by pootz
As others tasting this a second time in other venues state, it was not as bad as the CW keg...which was probably off/contaminated.
Sheesh guys, please read with discernment before reacting...I said the keg that went to CW was probably "off" ...it created the "urban legend".....I don't see how that impugned anyone's credibility...I'm saying that the spoiled CW keg was quite real and responsible for the bad first impression...perhaps I could have used "infamous event"...the point is; it seems like one keg was spoiled where all the bad reviews came from.
Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 2:46 pm
by Wheatsheaf
tupalev wrote:I saw some folks I respect from here and ratebeer going apeshit over the aroma yesterday, in a bad way, as if the smell turned them into some raging angry beer connoisseurs who had been offended by blue cheese.
I'll raise my hand to that. Hardly surprising given that it was the most unpleasant beer I've ever been misfortunate enough to taste. Thankfully it was the "good" version, though.
The aroma of vomit may have been absent for some, but not for me. Underneath the pungent blue cheese, there it was, wafting up from my glass. The flavour may have been passable, but no way did it stand a chance against the olfactory assault.
The aroma ought to have been a dead giveaway that something wasn't right with this beer. Off, spoiled, tainted, infected--call it whatever you want. If the beer smelled as strongly of butter, antiseptic, band-aids, cooked corn or wet cardboard, nobody would be defending it. I don't think leniency is called for just because this is a "wild" beer and some people don't mind the cheesiness.
If this had been made like other Flemish-style beers, I might suggest that the oppressive cheesy character was due to copious quantities of isobutyric and isovaleric acids that had been produced way in excess of tolerable or acceptable limits. This being a sour mash beer, though, I won't even guess because the process must be vastly different. The fermentation of wild beers is a complicated endeavour that can take years to achieve the desired results. The principle behind a sour mash seems to be that you can get everything over and done with in about a day, before you even start brewing. No wonder the beer tastes unlike anything else.