Michael Jackson RIP

[Bobsy]

...Let me put it this way, what in your opinion disqualifies him as a "musical legend" other than your own dislike of his music?

Fair question.

I guess it's his genre. I believe that someone suggested earlier that pop music is the pale lager of the music world. Now, Jackson may have been, in his day, the finest pale lager out there. Maybe he is a "legendary" pale lager. But I'm not a big fan of pale lager, and although I'm sure there must be some good ones out there, I really don't know much about them. Because I'm not a fan of the style. And I don't think that the finest pale lager in the world stands up to even an above-average IPA, or tripel, or weizenbock. It's not supposed to.

Maybe you feel that this is an unfair analogy. I don't. Maybe it's just me. But, as with beer, once I learned to appreciate the finer points and subtleties of music that's not designed for mass consumption, I could no longer take pop music seriously.

As for people who do, I don't think any less of them (or more of myself) than I do of people who drink Laker. There are certainly as many of them out there. To each his, or her, own.

That's a neat analogy, though not one that I agree with. I'd classify people like Elvis, The Police and Madonna as pop, but I'd hardly call them the equivalent of Estrella Damm, Laker and Whistler Export. There's lots of different types of pop music, so I think it would be fairer to compare it to lager styles in general rather than just shit lager. Maybe Whacko was more of a doppelbock?

Perhaps it would be even better to compare pop to wine - anything too young is usually crap, but the vintages tend to be quite solid and worthy of a try.

[Jon Walker]

The analogy also falls down in several other critical areas.

1) Comparing MJ to a single beer (in your analogy a pale lager) is too one dimensional. MJ achieved success in a wider spectrum of music that simply pop having released hits in soul, R&B etc...during his career. At best you could compare him to a brewery not a single beer but even that falls down.

2) MJ has been lauded and eulogized by some of the most significant voices in the recording industry INCLUDING indie/alt legends. That would be akin to Alesmith mourning the shuttering of the Corona brewery.

3) MJ recorded with a wide array of non-pop artists from Slash to Dylan to Ray Charles to Mick Jagger. Dylan even invited him to appear alongside him at a concert in Dublin a few years back. Using you analogy that'd be like Laker & Bells sharing a booth at the Michigan Brewers Guild’s Summer Beer Festival.

4) The alternative music press, such as NME, have eulogized MJ's death.

Bottom line Jester, if you must be as dismissive of his work as to trivialize it down to one beer style MJ wasn't pale lager. He was Pilsner Urquell. Maybe you just don't like Saaz hops, maybe you don't like the mass production of the beer, maybe your palette has evolved to Baltic porters and IIPA's...but to trivialize the man's musical contribution and inspiration is both arrogant and naive.

But perhaps my point is best made by the legend you chose to reference yourself, Lou Reed. News of Michael Jackson’s death reminded me of an exchange between Václav Havel and Lou Reed during their onstage conversation at Švandovo divadlo in 2005:

They only disagree once all evening, over Michael Jackson.

Havel had invited Jackson to Prague Castle in 1996, because he was interested in the pop star as a “civilization phenomenon,” but found him “disappointing.”

Rather than discuss his own cultural significance, says Havel, Jackson wanted to “go to the third courtyard and say hello to the children.”

Reed, irritated by the audience’s laughter, defends Jackson. “He’s a great singer, a great dancer, then there’s all this other stuff and people don’t pay attention.”

“I recognize his skills, but I’m not a fan,” Havel responds rather sniffily.

“He wasn’t in my castle,” Reed shoots back, getting a big laugh.

I tend to side with Reed.

http://prague.tv/articles/art-and-cultu ... d-lou-reed

[The_Jester]

Truly a discussion I never imagined having on bartowel. Didn't this thread start out as a joke? Gotta try to keep the beer references going here.

1. Jackson was not called the King of R&B or the King of Soul. He was the King of Pop.

2. Being eulogized does not bestow legendary status on a performer. I'm sure that someone will eulogize Jon Bon Jovi and Brad Paisley and Shakira when their times come as well. And I'll suggest that the guys at Alesmith would raise a pint to the closing of Corona.

3. Anthrax recorded with Public Enemy (in their prime, even). Didn't make them any sort of legends. A little Toronto band called the Sadies have recorded with Andre Williams, Jon Langford, Garth Hudson, Neko Case, Blue Rodeo, Gary Louris, etc. And (unfortunately) no one has even heard of them. (If you ever get a chance....) Neil Young once invited a band called Everest up on stage with him a couple of years back. Not legends.

4. The alternative music press eulogizes lots of people, many of whom are not even musicians. MJ was a cultural icon. He was famous. He died suddenly and under mysterious circumstances. Everybody eulogized him.

And the Havel / Reed story is interesting. And very well written. Really is. No sarcasm. But it doesn't really do anything to convince me that Jackson was a legendary musician.

And MJ can be Pilsner Urquell, if you want. They're a little harder for me to find, but if given a choice, I'll still take a Rochefort 10 or a La Fin du Monde, or an Aventinus or an Arrogant Bastard. And you always have a choice when it comes to music. (Unless you're in the car with your wife who listens to new country crap. Bloody hell.) In terms of flavour, for me, Pilsner Urquell doesn't stand up to the others. But, like pop music, I don't think that it's supposed to. It doesn't exist for the same purpose.

Naïve? Nah. I'm not naïve. I know that Jackson was the biggest selling pop singer in the history of pop singers. I know that other pop singers try to be like Mike. I know that kajillions of people love it. I don't. I can't take it seriously. For me, putting MJ on the same pedestal as Dylan or Young is like putting whoever designed the Dodge Aries on the same pedestal as the designer of the Jaguar E-Type 3.8 FHC. (Damn. A non-beer analogy.) That's just how I feel. If that makes me arrogant, so be it.

Anyhow, we're clearly not going to convince each other of anything. Does anyone ever, with this sort of thing? This has been an interesting diversion, but it would perhaps best be continued over a pint of Dieu du Ciel Élixir Céleste, with The Roots covering "Billie Jean" in the background.

[lister]

And you always have a choice when it comes to music. (Unless you're in the car with your wife who listens to new country crap. Bloody hell.)

Who was driving? The rule is the driver dictates the music played in the vehicle. Always. You wouldn't want the sudden swerve, spin around and shearing off the passenger side of the car by an oncoming truck when some jarring song comes on.

Meh to Michael Jackson and his music... Except for "Weird Al's" parodies.

[cannondale]

He was who he was I suppose, regardless of the particular label one chooses to affix aside his name.

A truly polarizing persona. Interestingly, the passing of this character has garnered 4 going on 5 pages worth of discussion in a beer-themed forum.

The beer-themed Michael Jackson's passing? About 1 1/2 pages.
(Although there were a few less treatises in that thread..)

[Belgian]

And you always have a choice when it comes to music. (Unless you're in the car with your wife who listens to new country crap. Bloody hell.)

Who was driving? The rule is the driver dictates the music played in the vehicle. Always. You wouldn't want the sudden swerve, spin around and shearing off the passenger side of the car by an oncoming truck when some jarring song comes on. [

Sounds a bit like an earlier celebrity death: Princess Diana died of Car-pole-tunnel Syndrome.

[cannondale]

Sounds a bit like an earlier celebrity death: Princess Diana died of Car-pole-tunnel Syndrome.

Now that's classy.

[Derek]

I still say Bud.



I won't dispute his musical talent, but his popularity was all about the show.

As for the cause of death, I'll speculate that it was related to an autoimmune disorder (whether it caused him to OD or not).

[Belgian]

Sounds a bit like an earlier celebrity death: Princess Diana died of Car-pole-tunnel Syndrome.

Now that's classy.

Are you blind, it was a sleazy grab at the lowest common denominator in getting a cheap laugh.

[Jon Walker]

Jester, you misconstrued and/or obfuscated my last post to such an extent that it would seem pointless to rebut what you wrote. You are right, I will likely never change your opinion regarding MJ's status as a "musical legend". Everyone is entitled to their opinion...However, when the vast preponderance of evidence seems to render that opinion isolated and out of touch I dare say it might be reason to wonder if you are tilting at windmills.

Regardless, it started out as a silly thread which has become sillier as we've disagreed over an entertainer's legacy on a beer forum. Let's allow the matter, and the man, to rest.

[LondonBeer]

Sounds a bit like an earlier celebrity death: Princess Diana died of Car-pole-tunnel Syndrome.

(Flamesuit On) I Thought Jackson died from food poisoning from all the 12 yr old sausage

[SteelbackGuy]

Sounds a bit like an earlier celebrity death: Princess Diana died of Car-pole-tunnel Syndrome.

(Flamesuit On) I Thought Jackson died from food poisoning from all the 12 yr old sausage

AHh the forest city is alive!!!!!!!!!!!!