Perspective on Ontario beer

[JerCraigs]

I don't agree with most of the comments on the first page. As someone who travels often within Ontario, the Great Lakes states, and Northern Florida, I think that our beer scene is advancing at an encouraging rate, but we're still 10 years behind the Americans. With respect to Gary's comment that Ontario's beer scene is "as good, maybe better" than most U.S. states, I'll buy that argument when:

- Our top crafters make regular production and seasonal beers that rival Three Floyds, Founders, Russian River, Surly, Bell's, and Cigar City, and put them in stores.

- Breweries take their very best one-offs and make them year-round offerings available in stores and on tap in multiple cities outside of T.O. (to match the style variation that you see in U.S. stores and bars).

We have already established that comparing ourselves to California is a waste of time. NY, Oregon and Michigan are likely not fair comparisons either. Would you rather drink in Ontario or Maine? Rhode Island? All due respect to Allagash but I think Ontario is doing okay in that comparison.

Most of the best US brewers don't offer their "very best one-offs" year round either. Dark Lord and Pliny the Younger etc. are essentially available for one day a year. A lot of the best stuff in Ontario would do well just to get broader seasonal distribution.

Cities "of note": We have brewpubs in Toronto, Ottawa, K-W, Kingston, London, and Peterborough. What city other than those do you think warrants a brewpub?


I'm nitpicking a bit, but you are cherry picking your US examples and undervaluing what's going on in Ontario.

[cratez]

cratez, I said Ontario has turned the corner, never said they are leading the race or have even caught up to the pack.

I wasn't addressing your comments specifically.

Don't think anyone else is saying that either.

Gary's assertion that Ontario's beer scene is "as good, maybe better" as the States and Jordan's comment that "we're really not all that far behind the US" couldn't have been clearer, no?

It is good and it is getting better.

That's the gist of my point.

Sure it is great to have lofty goals and to set the bar higher, but it is also foolhardy to always be complaining that things aren't good enough/aren't more like somewhere else.

Which is not what I'm doing. I have to wonder whether you actually read my comments, including my responses to saints_gambit and Kel.

[Derek]

I am not sure I agree with that. Since I think even if the ontario market had been completely open since say the 1980's I don't think there would be a ton of US craft brewers fighting to try and get a piece of that market. I mean other than I think Sam Adams, most US craft brewers aren't even close to being in all 50 states. So what motivations would there be for US companies to export their beer rather than go after market share in their own country?

Maybe not... but one issue with the US is the 3-tier system and necessity to deal with multiple distributors (which may not consider your product their primary interest).

The LCBO would be one large client... and if there wasn't any local competition, they could make a hefty profit. There's already so much tax on our stuff that Canadians would barely notice a substantially larger profit margin, whereas in the US they need to be more competitive.

So why didn't this happen during our lag in craft brewing? I'd speculate that the reason this didn't happen was simply TBS keeping the door closed to competition (which is where beer was generally bought back in the day).

[rejtable]

We have already established that comparing ourselves to California is a waste of time. NY, Oregon and Michigan are likely not fair comparisons either. Would you rather drink in Ontario or Maine? Rhode Island? All due respect to Allagash but I think Ontario is doing okay in that comparison.

I don't have a big dog in this fight, but I can't understand in what possible way ON should ever be compared to Maine or Rhode Island on any front, beer or otherwise?

[G.M. Gillman]

I can only offer my own perspective, but I don't find beer in D.C. brewpubs and beer bars, say, much different than downtown Toronto. Ditto for San Francisco and Sonoma, or NYC. There may be more beers in total but a lot of them taste the same basically, e.g. your typical APA and IPA and DIPA. We have a similar range of beers, as for Berliner weisse-style beer, I saw one on draft last night at Volo... Then too a place like California has way more people than our Province, and a conurbation like D.C. or Boston or Philly will naturally have a concentration of specialty bars including beer bars. We have only one city, TO, that can compare to those. But take again NYC which I'm quite familiar with. They have some good beer bars there but so do we, with a similar range again. I can't recall trying something there that I wouldn't encounter (basically) here and sometimes the opposite was true.

True, we don't have as many one-offs that become regulars, but the market is smaller here and also, do many of those have a broad enough appeal (factoring again the purchasing base)? But there are lots of stronger beers of all styles available now in GTA, e.g. the blackboard at Volo sometimes has half the offerings asterisked meaning usually the beers are strong or special in some way. This is a Toronto-centric view to be sure, but in time the influence will spread to more thinly populated parts of the Province.

I am all for more, though, to be sure, more examples of the same style, more one-offs, more availability, but in the essence of it for those who know where to look, taking in tap and bottle together, I think there is quite a bit around in central TO.

This doesn't include access to border cities like Buffalo and Watertown, or Hull for eastern Lake Ontario residents, which are regular resorts for many to expand their beer bunkers.

Gary

[cratez]

Would you rather drink in Ontario or Maine? Rhode Island?

With this comparison, you're indirectly saying that Ontario's beer scene has surpassed U.S. states that are 1/13th its size. I think that's a fair assessment.

Most of the best US brewers don't offer their "very best one-offs" year round either. Dark Lord and Pliny the Younger etc. are essentially available for one day a year.

I was referring to notable one-offs that have turned into year-round or at least annual seasonal offerings, like Zombie Dust, All Day, Big Hoppy Monster, and countless others. And I was suggesting that this would be necessary to improve style variation at retail stores in particular. But again: "my post isn't a wishlist. It's intended to illustrate how far we have to go on certain fronts. I don't expect half of the things mentioned to come to fruition."

A lot of the best stuff in Ontario would do well just to get broader seasonal distribution.

Agreed.

Cities "of note": We have brewpubs in Toronto, Ottawa, K-W, Kingston, London, and Peterborough. What city other than those do you think warrants a brewpub?

Wasn't aware of a reputable micro brewpub anywhere in K-W and the one in London produces macro-style adjunct beers, so most people don't even consider The Ceeps to be a brewpub. Hamilton and Windsor would each have one if we actually compared to the Great Lakes states (let alone the rest of the US). This isn't a complaint, though; just an observation in response to comments made on the first page of this thread.

you are...undervaluing what's going on in Ontario.

I made clear in my follow-up post that I don't undervalue anything, and I'm very encouraged with the progress we've seen and the direction we're currently heading in.

[Tapsucker]

- The number of quality Ontario micro draughts available in Toronto and a few major city bars has increased at a rapid pace, and style variation is slowly improving as well.

I generally steer clear of corporate pubs and chain restaurants. My motto being don't eat in places that end in 's or drink in places with a & in the name. Mostly because I don't like crap food and crap beer. These places tend to emphasize quantity over quality. That said (and back on topic), I think the most significant sign of positive change in this province is the arrival of brewers like Muskoka in some of these chains. When you can find decent beer in a big box mall diner like they have had for years in the US, that demonstrates a shift in public awareness.

Add to that the fact that we will start seeing some of these beers in places like Pearson airport, or even the other extreme where student budget dive bars and UofT student lounges are serving craft beer. Sometimes exclusively. All walks of life are interested. Even pro-sports fans, who are generally the sheep of society, are being treated to things like Muskoka sponsored events. It's pretty hard to complain!

[Tapsucker]

In reference to my above post. My apologies to Smokeless Joe's and Thirsty & Miserable. They are exceptions and there are probably a few more.

[phirleh]

Would you rather drink in Ontario or Maine?

Trick question, Ebineezers!

The cellar of Ebineezers

[cratez]

A few thoughts:

1) Almost all of your observations apply to Toronto (in many cases Volo specifically) and therefore have little relevance outside of the city. Keeping in mind that 10.5 million Ontarians do not live in T.O. proper.
2) IMO even Toronto's beer scene does not compare to most midsized and large cities in the states that surround us, let alone California, Oregon, etc. I listed the reasons why I believe this on page 3.
3) Many of my points seem to be lost on you e.g. the fact that Ann Arbor, Syracuse, and Buffalo are legitimate beer destinations, whereas Ontario cities of similar size are not (yet).

That being said, the only real difference between our points of view is that I believe we as a province are "getting there" in relation to our southern neighbours (with about 10 years to go), whereas you think "we are there" and are now "as good, maybe better" as the great beer scenes of the U.S.

I generally steer clear of corporate pubs and chain restaurants. My motto being don't eat in places that end in 's or drink in places with a & in the name. Mostly because I don't like crap food and crap beer. These places tend to emphasize quantity over quality. That said (and back on topic), I think the most significant sign of positive change in this province is the arrival of brewers like Muskoka in some of these chains. When you can find decent beer in a big box mall diner like they have had for years in the US, that demonstrates a shift in public awareness.

Add to that the fact that we will start seeing some of these beers in places like Pearson airport, or even the other extreme where student budget dive bars and UofT student lounges are serving craft beer. Sometimes exclusively. All walks of life are interested. Even pro-sports fans, who are generally the sheep of society, are being treated to things like Muskoka sponsored events. It's pretty hard to complain!

All great observations that are mostly relevant to Toronto, but if you think that I'm complaining, you've missed my point.

Anyway, I'm off to get an early start to Canada Day weekend with some Crazy Canucks on the patio. Cheers!

[JerCraigs]

We have already established that comparing ourselves to California is a waste of time. NY, Oregon and Michigan are likely not fair comparisons either. Would you rather drink in Ontario or Maine? Rhode Island? All due respect to Allagash but I think Ontario is doing okay in that comparison.

I don't have a big dog in this fight, but I can't understand in what possible way ON should ever be compared to Maine or Rhode Island on any front, beer or otherwise?

Population wise Pennsylvania, Ohio, Illinois are probably the closest comparables. My point was more that there are a lot of states that will make Ontario's beer scene look pretty good.

Wasn't aware of a reputable micro brewpub anywhere in K-W and the one in London produces macro-style adjunct beers, so most people don't even consider The Ceeps to be a brewpub. Hamilton and Windsor would each have one if we actually compared to the Great Lakes states (let alone the rest of the US).

I think Windsor has/had one, but not a craft brewpub. I think you may be overstating your case, but then places like Rochester and Syracuse would support your point.


Anyways, I don't necessarily disagree with the points being made, by I think the "gap" is closing quickly. That said, I also don't think expecting the growth curve in places like London or Hamilton to keep pace with Toronto and Ottawa is realistic.

[G.M. Gillman]

I do think we are there yes for GTA pretty much, my comments from the beginning were limited to that. Regionally, it's less good especially for draft, but will get there. Certainly Volo though is just an example of beer diversity, there are also C'est What (plus e.g. the festival recently), Bellwood's, beer bistro, Wvrst, Dominion, Bar Hop, Smokeless, Granite, etc. On some things we just have to disagree, e.g. I've never been a fan of Cigar City beers.

People can have different viewpoints, I respect yours.

Gary

[TheSevenDuffs]

I do think we are there yes for GTA pretty much,

Unfortunately you can't paint the GTA with one brush. I am in Mississauga, a mere 15 minutes from downtown and there isn't a single craft beer bar worth going to that is anywhere near my house. That's the problem in the GTA. Downtown Toronto has a great beer scene and anywhere that is even remotely off of the TTC grid has its work cut out for it.

[G.M. Gillman]

Yes, but I'm including LCBO's and Beer Stores in my assessment. (West 50 Pourhouse has some good choice on the draft side but sure Mississauga is a big place, I know that). But you can drive into town to have a good beer, e.g. Bellwoods is out of my specific area and it takes me a half-hour at least to go there but I do occasionally. It's hard to compare mid-size U.S. and Canadian cities in my view because the U.S. is so much bigger in population, so mid-size U.S. places will just have "more" all things being equal than us (not always though).

But it's changing, e.g. Ottawa is much better in recent years for beer choice. You always get exceptions too where good beer implanted for some reason, e.g. KBC in Kingston, or Rob's place in Cambridge, the heritage brewery at Black Creek where growlers can be purchased, the numerous breweries in cottage country north of Toronto. It's getting better I think.


Gary

[ErkLR]

I think Windsor has/had one, but not a craft brewpub.

Yeah, it was Charly's, but it closed in April. It was not a... highbrow establishment to say the least.