The Bar Towel

david henman wrote:I would much rather pay more for better selection at a single store in my entire province (which I do quite often given that NS has allowed 4 private stores to open) than have to endure a half assed slightly expanded selection province-wide that is selected by a government employee.

...that is unfortunate, and certainly not the case here in ontario.

What's not the case, that the selection is half-assed? Or that it's selected by a government employee?

The latter is certainly true, and the overwhelming majority of the regular contributors to this board would agree with the former.

No one here believes that every private store in Alberta or the US or even every depanneur in QC has a better selection than the LCBO or the Beer Store. The point is that in the US, AB, or Quebec, any store owner can choose to offer an expanded selection. If you didn't find good selection or service in Alberta, you didn't go to the right stores

...exactly! in ontario, practically any lcbo or beer store is the "right" store, in that context. if they were privatized, that would change, and drastically. how far would i be forced to travel to find a store that has a half decent selection?

Again, you're going to have a hard time convincing anybody here that the LCBO is the "right" store. You'll have an even harder time with The Beer Store (which, by the way, is already privately owned).

- Kensington Wine Market and Willow Park in Calgary are two examples. Kensington alone has every one of the widely available Trappists (Achel, Chimay, Orval, Rochefort, and Westmalle) plus St. Bernardus including the 60th anniversary Special Edition.

...again, that is wonderful, but ONLY if those stores are accessible to you, and NOT if you have to drive halfway across the city, or province, to get to them.

Sure, but wouldn't you rather have the option of driving across town (not that onerous) for a radically improved selection? It'd be much better than the drive to Buffalo/Detriot/Syracuse/Burlinton(VT)/etc. that's the only option now.

Quebec and the US are the same way - most stores have Molson and Labatt. But then you have Joanette and Rahman among others in Montreal, De La Rive outside of Quebec City, and so one. Quebec is unique in that their system supports local breweries only - but when those local breweries include Charlevoix, Trois Mousquetaires, Bieropholie and now even Dieu du Ciel, they're doing something right.

...while i don't doubt for a minute that these stores exist, in my twenty years living in the poorer areas of montreal, and my several times a year visits to the province since i left in '86, the only "exotic" beer i have ever seen in a grocery or convenience store is heineken.

Again, you weren't looking hard enough. Even a lot of the run-of-the-mill depanneurs in Montreal carry at least a range of Unibroue products. Hell, the Provigo I was in last time I was in Montral carried a better range of Canadian (mostly Quebec) micros than the LCBO/TBS do.

John's Grocery in Iowa City is the best example of a great store in the US I can think of. If Iowa city has a market that can support such a store, do you really think Toronto doesn't?

...again, and i mentioned this in my first post, i have no doubt certain stores in certain areas will cater to a more sophisticated clientele. if you happen to live in newmarket, however, good luck!

According to wikipedia and StatsCan, Iowa City and Newmarket have similar populations (62,000 vs. 74,000). Household income is similar ($34,977 vs. $39,593). The biggest difference I can see is that Iowa City has a much larger percentage of residents with higher education (about 45% vs. 25% in Newmarket).

So, unless you think a bachelor's degree is required to attain the level of sophistication needed to stop drinking swill - there seems to be no reason Newmarket wouldn't be able to support a great beer store of it's own.

its difficult not to get the impression that many of the people who want to see beer, wine and liquor privatized are, in reality, against government ownership and control.

that, to me, is an entirely different and unrelated issue.

I'm not 100% sure what you're trying to say here. I think you'll find though, that many of the people here are less concerned with government ownership that with control. I have no problem with a government run LCBO, just let private entities compete with it.

-Josh

david henman wrote: If there were more private sores in a place like Toronto competition would dictate that some would actually be really good. That is why places like Bar Volo come into existence, the 'upper tier' of clientele with taste are out there and won't settle for less.

...the key word here is "some". as have stated clearly at least three times now, i have no doubt in my mind whatsoever that certain stores in certain areas would have little choice but to cater to a sophisticated clientele.

do you seriously think that, if privatization occured, i would be able to pick up "Stuff like GL Blackout and Brooklyn Black Chocolate Stout" at bubba's milk, gas and adult video store in keswick?

-dh

must... show... restraint...

I think you may be missing the point. That being, in my mind, not so much that you would get those beers in every store but could get in a store somewhere. With the system that is currently place in Ontario you can't.

flip wrote:

david henman wrote: do you seriously think that, if privatization occured, i would be able to pick up "Stuff like GL Blackout and Brooklyn Black Chocolate Stout" at bubba's milk, gas and adult video store in keswick?

I think you may be missing the point. That being, in my mind, not so much that you would get those beers in every store but could get in a store somewhere. With the system that is currently place in Ontario you can't.

I totally agree with Flip. The only relevant issue is that you can't get that stuff in Keswick currently; under a different system you could. That's all there is to it.

david henman wrote: do you seriously think that, if privatization occured, i would be able to pick up "Stuff like GL Blackout and Brooklyn Black Chocolate Stout" at bubba's milk, gas and adult video store in keswick?

Only assuming the rest of my previous post was completely invisible, ha ha.

No if you read what I said I believe SOME private stores in big centers would not suck, and I could give a flying toss about the others.

I am talking about Toronto - a place likely as any to have places to buy good stuff to buy. Someone like Peter at Esprit could set up a shop if he wanted to; imagine buying those kinds of beers in singles and sixes, and the new interest that could develop.

As someone living in Newmarket, I am am annoyed by the lcbo. I have to drive into the city to get micros like Devil's Pale Ale, Plain Porter and Wellington Imperial Stout. I went to a the shiny new store in Aurora and pale lagers were well represented. Even my old store at Weston and 401 seems to have lost it's special selections. I wouldn't mind privatization.

I don't understand this apparent fear of "Bubba's Milk" carrying the same crap that those of us who shop at The Beer Store or LCBO are subjected to day in, day out (except on Sundays, if you happened to sleep in).

So let them carry swill. We won't buy it. Some enterprising individual -- maybe in Toronto, maybe in the 'burbs, maybe in a smaller city, maybe in a tiny village near the local brewery -- is going to come up with the brilliant idea of importing a few malt-based beverages that DON'T taste like someone already drank it.

And people will flock to it, from all across this godforsaken province. And this entrepreneur will roll in the dough. And our government will still collect their liquor taxes, and we won't have to deal with border guards with their moustaches and aviator glasses and their "Where y'all goin' to at?"

I'm straining to find a downside here. Maybe I'm too sober...?

david henman wrote:I would much rather pay more for better selection at a single store in my entire province (which I do quite often given that NS has allowed 4 private stores to open) than have to endure a half assed slightly expanded selection province-wide that is selected by a government employee.

...that is unfortunate, and certainly not the case here in ontario.

...

its difficult not to get the impression that many of the people who want to see beer, wine and liquor privatized are, in reality, against government ownership and control.

that, to me, is an entirely different and unrelated issue.

-dh

Okay, based on your posts here, my response is based on the presumptions that 1) you are happy with the current selection at the LCBO and the Beer Store and 2) you haven't been to a store with a broader selection such as those I've already mentioned.

With that in mind, you and I (and the others who favour changes to the system) differ in that your needs/wants are being met by the system and mine aren't. Given that discrepancy, I'd ask the following - under what pretense is it appropriate for the government to choose that your needs and wants get met and mine don't? Keep in mind that this isn't a necessity of life like healthcare or education, this is the retail sale of a food product.

Under a private system, the market decides whose needs get met. Yes, the majority of corner stores will carry swill and nothing more. But if, as you say, practically any LCBO or Beer Store is the "right" store in that context, then under a private system, a private store in that same location will remain that "right" store, because it's selling what that particular market wants. If private stores operating in the exact location as current government stores ended up with a reduced selection than those government stores, then your assumption that the government stores are "right" in that context goes out the window, because they're actually selling a greater selection than that particular market wants.

I'll add that I'm confused about your first point re: half assed selection picked by government employees. Whether you are saying you don't have a half assed selection or that you don't have government employees making those selections, you're wrong on both counts. On the first point, given the size of the Ontario market compared to the stores I've mentioned, it could be a lot better. On the second, LCBO employees are government employees.

Which leads to the next part of the problem. If that LCBO employee chooses a product line that doesn't match the needs of consumers, what happens to that employee? Do they get fired? No, because that's not how government's work. What about an LCBO that doesn't do as well as it could? Does it get closed? Not likely. The union would have a fit. More to the point of government needing to be involved in retailing - if an employee sells booze to minors without checking IDs what happens to that employee or that store? Do they lose their job/license to sell alcohol? Not a chance.

But, on the other hand, if a private store chooses its selection badly, it goes out of business. If a buyer doesn't choose products to meet his or her customers' needs, he or she gets fired. If a store sells to minors, it gets fined or loses its license. If an employee sells to minors without carding they get fired. This is true accountability that doesn't happen in the current system.

But all that said, let's assume as you have that the LCBO's as they currently operate are the "right" store for their context. You assume that if the system were to change so that the current government stores were left open BUT privately run stores were allowed to operate, the selection at LCBOs would go downhill. The Nova Scotia experience would suggest that doesn't happen. In fact, the private stores which now compete with NSLC stores (no government stores were closed to make room for private stores) actually forced the NSLC to IMPROVE their selection so they could compete.

Now let's assume that your worst case scenario comes true. Stores are privatized and God forbid the closest store with a selection that's right for you is an hour or two away. In the US, Alberta, and NS, those private stores will ship it to you. Sure the LCBO will do that, but with the selection the samne at virtually every store, there's no point. If the LCBO is so sure that it's meeting most of the needs of the province's consumers, why not allow mail order purchases for those who want more, whether from outside the province or outside the country?

In short, competition - and true competition, not a privatizing of the LCBO so that it's a private monopoly versus a public one - will make the system more accountable and actually serve the consumer rather than the government.

Just to add my very brief two cents here....

I lived in Calgary for about 8 months and in that time the ONLY positive thing I found was that there were 3 beer stores within a five minute walk that all had just as good a selection if not better than the one decent LCBO in peterborough (We have several but only one with any real choice). The prices were also lower than LCBO for the same brands.

I have faith that if ontario privitized beer sales we would soon be living in a beertopia of bliss!

david henman wrote:...i disagree. for one thing, i have been to the US, and Alberta, where you can buy liquor in privately owned stores . the selection is horrible, the service completely non-existent and the prices nothing to celebrate.

Either you went to the US and Alberta in a parallel universe or you work for the "BO'

All I know is that beer fanciers in Ontraio are spending more $$$ at specialty beer bars and at specialty beer stores in Quebec, NY, Mich, than they do at the BO. ( I just spent $300 in Quebec getting Canadian craft beer not sold in Ontario)

And the "seasonals" the government retail monopoly has arranged the last few seasons was underwhelming, miniscule and had small or no relevance to the season it was celebrating.

There is ample room and demand for private independent specialty stores to service the market the LCBO either ignores or does not want to take the risk on.

If you think the Bo has better selection for your tastes then patronize them...personlly they do not service my consumer needs for variety very well and I'd like an alternative if they do not want to accomodate me.

BTW: When Ontario Has an LCBO with the import and craft beer listings of say Kensington wines, Willow park liquor in Calgary or Sherbrook in Edmonton, then beer fanciers here will stop raiding the shelves at Premier Gourmet in Buffalo for the big US Micros and European imports.

Vote/support Freedom Party or Libertarian if you want private beer sales in Ontario.

$ wrote:Vote/support Freedom Party or Libertarian if you want private beer sales in Ontario.

Don't need to prompt me...I'm a life-long libertarian ...be nice to see an FP candidate in my riding though.

A pretty comprehensive review of the privatization topic with some stats:

http://www.canada.com/components/print. ... 3a06ea7169

Good article.

Restricting convenience stores to selling just Ontario wine and beer, trade experts say, is a clear violation of NAFTA and WTO trade rules. ... "It's called national treatment. We can't discriminate between foreign products and domestic products." "You really couldn't, under either GATT or NAFTA, allow Canadian beer to be sold, but not American beer," agrees Donald McRae, a University of Ottawa law professor.

Isn't this exactly what the Wine Rack stores do? They only sell Ontario wine. How does this get around these regulations?

Yet the same day the panel issued its report, the government rejected its central recommendation.

Seriously? The very same day???? That report was quite the eye-opener. It causes a tear (in my American beer) to hear that the report was immediately dismissed with a wave of a hand by the government that commissioned it.

I honestly don't believe that the underage drinking issue holds much merit. Me and my old balding head still get carded on occasion in the States whereas it never happens in Canada.

sstackho wrote:Isn't this exactly what the Wine Rack stores do? They only sell Ontario wine. How does this get around these regulations?

They existed before the NAFTA agreements went into effect, so they were grandfathered in.

sstackho wrote:Yet the same day the panel issued its report, the government rejected its central recommendation.

Seriously? The very same day???? That report was quite the eye-opener. It causes a tear (in my American beer) to hear that the report was immediately dismissed with a wave of a hand by the government that commissioned it.

Not just the same day, but literally within an hour or two. If you poke back through the forum here, you'll likely find some ranting about it.

The NAFTA and GATT is nothing more than a goverment excuse. Private VQA stores exist in BC selling all BC wines. They came into effect after NAFTA. The US is subject to the same rules under NAFTA as we are. There are private stores in NY State selling only NYS wines. There is one in Buffalo. There are stores in Michigan selling only Michigan wines and so are there in Ohio. In Pa. you start a winery and the Commenwealth gives you 5 off-site retail licenses. All these things have come into existance post 1988.
In Ontario the real reason we can not have VQA wine stores or Craft Beer stores is the gov't (Liberals) does not want to ruffle the feathers of OPSEU.
That being said it has been suggested by one MPP that if private wine or beer stores were to happen the only way he would support it is if LCBO employees were hired to work in them. Go figure.