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LCBO Summer 2009 Release

Discuss beer or anything else that comes to mind in here.

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cannondale
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Post by cannondale »

But (and to be flippant) I guess the 'acceptance criteria' for lead content in my everyday tap water are still way looser than for the cyanide content of any case of Cantillon Kriek I might drink over two years. How convenient! Everything can stay as backwards as it is!
The LCBO acceptance criteria for potassium ferrocyanide = less than 500 µg/L

The MOE acceptance criteria for lead in drinking water = less than 10 µg/L

So in this case it turns out things are looking pretty frontwards after all! :wink:

WADR, can I recommend just a smidge of research prior to making assertions on matters of this nature, flippant or otherwise. I'm not trying to be condescending, but if your thoughts on the subject have no basis in fact, are you really adding anything of value to the conversation?
Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.

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Belgian
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Post by Belgian »

cannondale wrote:
But (and to be flippant) I guess the 'acceptance criteria' for lead content in my everyday tap water are still way looser than for the cyanide content of any case of Cantillon Kriek I might drink over two years. How convenient! Everything can stay as backwards as it is!
The LCBO acceptance criteria for potassium ferrocyanide = less than 500 µg/L

The MOE acceptance criteria for lead in drinking water = less than 10 µg/L

So in this case it turns out things are looking pretty frontwards after all! :wink:

WADR, can I recommend just a smidge of research prior to making assertions on matters of this nature, flippant or otherwise. I'm not trying to be condescending, but if your thoughts on the subject have no basis in fact, are you really adding anything of value to the conversation?
Condescending or not, and speaking from whatever dogma you adhere to, you are entitled to speak and I would always honor this my friend.

Even so, it's pretty weak to assert apples-to-oranges that this amount of lead in a permanent drinking water supply is OK because fifty times the amount of potassium ferrocyanide in beer is also OK. You make direct volumetric comparison of two poisons which have very diferent effects.

You are talking about lead, good old non-organic-chemical, nasty heavy-metal lead - and comparing it to entirely another organic chemical cyanide, a chemical scarely consumed in this particular beer, and one not running out of your tap every day like lead is. And THAT is not a real risk comparison. Lead.... accumilates in the bones because the body cannot differentiate it from calcium, and with long-tern exposure it continually builds up and stays there, and is quite difficult to remove with chelation therapy. Lead is highly toxic and causes irreversible neurological damage. No avoidable amount may be "safe."

Cyanide, by contrast is an organic chemical that AFAIK does not stay and accumilate in the body the way lead does, and would likely be consumed in exceedingly small amounts from occasional beverages compared to the constant lead uptake from water, and is "only slightly toxic":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potassium_ ... e#Toxicity

So give us lead-free water all year and cyanide-containing Kriek once a month! :)
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Bytowner
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Post by Bytowner »

Ah, right you are tuqueboy, thanks!

midlife crisis
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Post by midlife crisis »

Spotted half a dozen Thwaites Lancaster Bomber in (of all places) the Avenue Rd and Lawrence LCBO today. Maybe this is a good sign for this new store. Anyway, I grabbed four and left a couple, being community minded :)

They also had lots of Christoffel and Orange Peel from this release, as well as a strange mixture of what I can only assume are leftovers from other stores, such as Burton Bridge Porter, Scotch Irish Session Ale (Nov 2008 batch), Pietra and Urbock 23.

icemachine
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Post by icemachine »

LCBO chemical testing requirements can be found here

http://www.lcbotrade.com/pdf/Product%20 ... 202008.pdf
"Everything ... is happening" - Bob Cole

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cannondale
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Post by cannondale »

Condescending or not, and speaking from whatever dogma you adhere to, you are entitled to speak and I would always honor this my friend
I wholeheartedly agree with this sentiment. Public forums such as this exist for just that purpose.

My intention was not to sensor opinion, but rather to highlight the fact that to draw conclusions on a matter of this nature through a perfunctory analysis is premature and frankly, misguided. Food safety is a multifarious topic, and the ascription of human ADI’s (acceptable daily intake) for a particular compound or family of compounds (from all dietary sources) is, in short, a bugger of a problem. To then parlay that ADI into an allowable concentration limit in a point source such as Cantillon Kriek is all the more a conundrum. Again, in the case of potassium ferrocyanide, the internationally recognized JECFA (Joint Expert Committee on Food Additives, comprised of members from the United Nations Food and Agriculture Organization and the World Health Organization) human ADI has been established for quite some time as 0-0.025 mg/kg bw.

I’m quite confident that the LCBO took the arguably conservative approach of NOAEL/100 in setting their concentration limit for potassium ferrocyanide. The clinically determined NOAEL (no observable adverse effect level) is 50 µg/mL, and the ‘100’ represents a standard risk factor that is generally reliable for taking into consideration extrapolation from animal studies, as well as myriad biochemical, toxicological and demographic factors. So they landed at 500 µg/L. Certainly a case could be made that this limit is excessively conservative for the product in question, however the important point that I’ve been trying to make is that it is not without precedent, it is based on scientifically obtained data, and it employs techniques that are universally applied in setting food standards. So there is no reason to believe that there is any wrong-doing on the part of the LCBO in this particular case. Of course everyone is free to draw their own conclusions, I am simply analyzing based on my considerable expertise and long experience in the disciplines requisite for a thorough-going assessment of the matter.

Far too often in these forums there is a tendency to jump the gun and vilify the LCBO at every opportunity. I don’t think that I am alone in this sentiment. There are certainly questionable practices that should be challenged as due, as well as the ethical issue of the insincerity in the stated motivations for their quality assurance program in the first place. But I think it is fair to say that it is in everyone’s best interest that a certain degree of prudence should, in general, be employed prior to jumping to conclusions.
Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.

Bobbyok
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Post by Bobbyok »

cannondale wrote:
Condescending or not, and speaking from whatever dogma you adhere to, you are entitled to speak and I would always honor this my friend
I wholeheartedly agree with this sentiment. Public forums such as this exist for just that purpose.

My intention was not to sensor opinion, but rather to highlight the fact that to draw conclusions on a matter of this nature through a perfunctory analysis is premature and frankly, misguided. Food safety is a multifarious topic, and the ascription of human ADI’s (acceptable daily intake) for a particular compound or family of compounds (from all dietary sources) is, in short, a bugger of a problem. To then parlay that ADI into an allowable concentration limit in a point source such as Cantillon Kriek is all the more a conundrum. Again, in the case of potassium ferrocyanide, the internationally recognized JECFA (Joint Expert Committee on Food Additives, comprised of members from the United Nations Food and Agriculture Organization and the World Health Organization) human ADI has been established for quite some time as 0-0.025 mg/kg bw.

I’m quite confident that the LCBO took the arguably conservative approach of NOAEL/100 in setting their concentration limit for potassium ferrocyanide. The clinically determined NOAEL (no observable adverse effect level) is 50 µg/mL, and the ‘100’ represents a standard risk factor that is generally reliable for taking into consideration extrapolation from animal studies, as well as myriad biochemical, toxicological and demographic factors. So they landed at 500 µg/L. Certainly a case could be made that this limit is excessively conservative for the product in question, however the important point that I’ve been trying to make is that it is not without precedent, it is based on scientifically obtained data, and it employs techniques that are universally applied in setting food standards. So there is no reason to believe that there is any wrong-doing on the part of the LCBO in this particular case. Of course everyone is free to draw their own conclusions, I am simply analyzing based on my considerable expertise and long experience in the disciplines requisite for a thorough-going assessment of the matter.

Far too often in these forums there is a tendency to jump the gun and vilify the LCBO at every opportunity. I don’t think that I am alone in this sentiment. There are certainly questionable practices that should be challenged as due, as well as the ethical issue of the insincerity in the stated motivations for their quality assurance program in the first place. But I think it is fair to say that it is in everyone’s best interest that a certain degree of prudence should, in general, be employed prior to jumping to conclusions.
Was there wrong-doing in the Cantillon Kriek situation? That depends. Is ignorance of a product that the LCBO, as the monopoly retailer of said product, claims expertise over, wrong-doing? I wouldn't call it wrong-doing myself, but some might. It is still ignorance though.

And the story from the product's agent was that it was not the LCBO's own guideline that was followed for the Kriek (which appears to be the same for wine and beer) but that it was the CFIA guideline which allows for a difference between wine and beer because cherries apparently are not an allowable ingredient in beer by CFIA standards. In any case, no politician or bureaucrat's decision is going to keep me from drinking Cantillon Kriek or any other product I know to be safe, whether or not their decisions make it more difficult for me to access it.

I won't speak for others, but I study public policy for a living and have a particular interest in government regulation and monopolies. My criticisms of the LCBO or any provincial liquor monopoly are not snap decisions or jumping to the gun. I give them credit where credit is due. I have praised the NSLC on a number of occasions for the improvements in customer service I've witnessed over the past 5-10 years (which have largely happened since they've allowed some minimal private competition). But the liquor monopolies remain in existence for purely political reasons - not economic, not social, not moral or ethical. And until government gets out of the business of retailing, or at least is willing to allow competition within the system, the depth and breadth of product quality and selection will never be as good as it could be.

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Bobsy
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Post by Bobsy »

Good news, folks, Chapeau Exotic is now on the shelves.

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SteelbackGuy
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Post by SteelbackGuy »

Bobsy wrote:Good news, folks, Chapeau Exotic is now on the shelves.
Well thank the f'n gods for that! I've been waiting for this elixir of life to show up!
If you`re reading this, there`s a 15% chance you`ve got a significant drinking problem. Get it fixed, get recovered!

carguy
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Post by carguy »

I was at my local LCBO this morning, and the only thing from the summer release was the Orange Peel Ale. Nothing else. They even delisted Bitter and Twisted, which boggles the mind, as it was selling faster than they could order it. I guess I better save up on gas money, as I'll be once again cruising southern Ontario LCBO's in search for new beers.

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Belgian
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Post by Belgian »

Bobbyok wrote: And the story from the product's agent was that it was not the LCBO's own guideline that was followed for the Kriek (which appears to be the same for wine and beer) but that it was the CFIA guideline which allows for a difference between wine and beer because cherries apparently are not an allowable ingredient in beer by CFIA standards. In any case, no politician or bureaucrat's decision is going to keep me from drinking Cantillon Kriek or any other product I know to be safe, whether or not their decisions make it more difficult for me to access it .
And here is the problem. CFIA have to acknowledge the existence of a beer that happens to contain intense amounts of cherry, and therefore justifies unusual presence of cyanide. The consumers buying it aren't drinking several each day. Perhaps CFIA have to re-name it something other then generic "beer" - perhaps we need the subcategory "Kriek" just as we have "Mead" "Perry" and "Cider" and "Sake" to distinguish culturally distinct products that might otherwise befuddle the lad chemists.

What's one more little white label: "KRIEK STRONG CHERRY BEER - 5.2% - OUR LAB HAS DETERMINED THIS PRODUCT TO CONTAIN XX AMOUNT OF FREE POTASSIUM FERROCYANIDE, AN AMOUNT TYPICAL IN RED WINE" - or some such to indicate this is a distinct product.

The CFIA have to recognize that some beers are consumed more in the usual pattern of exotic wines - infrequently and in moderation - and therefore they must accept Cantillon Kriek as safe within all realistic parameters.

The CFIA and the LCBO both have a political responsibility to allow us product chioices that may be reasonably and customarily expected in the western world. For them fail at this responsibility is to wrong the public.
In Beerum Veritas

icemachine
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Post by icemachine »

carguy wrote:I was at my local LCBO this morning, and the only thing from the summer release was the Orange Peel Ale. Nothing else. They even delisted Bitter and Twisted, which boggles the mind, as it was selling faster than they could order it. I guess I better save up on gas money, as I'll be once again cruising southern Ontario LCBO's in search for new beers.
They delist seasonals pretty rapidly it seems, although they are willing to bring more in from the warehouse if demand (and supply) is there.
"Everything ... is happening" - Bob Cole

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cannondale
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Post by cannondale »

The Cantillon Kriek we brought in was rejected because of excessive levels of potassium ferocyanide...levels which would require a mouse to consume 24 bottles a day for 10 years! Quebec took the shipment without question. They rarely and only randomly test products and this has happened to us before...at last count, 468 people have died from drinking the Cantillon in Quebec...a small price to pay.
Peter, did you receive a certificate of analysis?
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esprit
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Post by esprit »

No, only a standard rejection...COA's at the time involved a $155 charge so why would I pay the charge for a beer I could not sell?

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Post by Garthicus »

SteelbackGuy wrote:
Bobsy wrote:Good news, folks, Chapeau Exotic is now on the shelves.
Well thank the f'n gods for that! I've been waiting for this elixir of life to show up!
Is this the same beer?

http://www.ratebeer.com/beer/chapeau-exotic/2133/

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