Hair of the Dog

Jon Walker · Post by **Jon Walker** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 12:23 pm

My Adam and Fred bottles are highly carbonated (they pour a pint glass three quarters full of foam no matter how settled the bottle and how careful the pour) and the bottles are filled to within an inch of the cap. Both of these factors would mean that excess agitation and/or freezing could cause the bottles to pop their caps even with a snug fit. With the loose caps we've all observed I'm actually surprised more of the shipment didn't pop open prior to arriving in Toronto.

The Doggie Claws were less likely to be disturbed by agitation as they are all flatter than Kate Hudson. Whether that's by brewer's design or due to the caps is a subject of debate.

GregClow · Post by **GregClow** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 12:59 pm

inertiaboy wrote:When Lubiere went to pick up his cases, he was informed that 2 were destroyed by the LCBO because they froze and popped. Whether they actually froze or not is possibly an open question.

So he didn't actually see them in a frozen state?

Then I would guess that they popped due to the capping issue, and the LCBO folks who received them in Ottawa assumed the bottles popped due to freezing.

Belgian · Post by **Belgian** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 1:58 pm

It seems unlikely that high-alcohol craft beers would freeze so easily this year.

I will put various beers and a HOTD Adam outside on my window ledge... we'll see what happens.

BeerMonger · Post by **BeerMonger** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 9:20 pm

Belgian I have re-read some of these posts and I have to say I am in full agreement with you.

There are some on this board who appear to be too much in love with the art of microbrewing and attach some sort of "mystique" or "flamboyance" to it and then are ready to give a free pass to those that are engaged in it.

If any manufacturer provides any product that arrives in damaged condition that likely is the result of poor performance by the manufacturer...the manufacturer should make good on it. End of story. Lets quit hiding behind this glorified microbrewery crap and giving a pass towards bad business practice.

Bobbyok · Post by **Bobbyok** » Thu Jan 11, 2007 9:01 am

BeerMonger wrote:Belgian I have re-read some of these posts and I have to say I am in full agreement with you.

There are some on this board who appear to be too much in love with the art of microbrewing and attach some sort of "mystique" or "flamboyance" to it and then are ready to give a free pass to those that are engaged in it.

If any manufacturer provides any product that arrives in damaged condition that likely is the result of poor performance by the manufacturer...the manufacturer should make good on it. End of story. Lets quit hiding behind this glorified microbrewery crap and giving a pass towards bad business practice.

For the third time - I didn't suggest giving them a free pass. I simply suggested that this was less a case of a business trying to screw you over, as some have made it out to be, and more a case of a business that should have said no in the first place.

Given the system (LCBO, Beer Store, lots of bar owners - Volo, Beerbistro, and Smokeless types excluded, and even some agents) are already working to restrict selection rather than enhance it, are you really that willing to further exclude potential means of enhanced selection? As Al has mentioned, the story of woe on his webpage is pretty highly ranked on a Google search. On the one hand, potential customers read this and think twice about buying from HOTD (or microbrewers in general). On the other, North American Microbrewers can also read it and think twice about doing a private order to Ontario.

But I digress, because the free market system I hold near and dear and that I'd dearly love to see allows any and all criticism such as that which is happening here.

Jon Walker · Post by **Jon Walker** » Thu Jan 11, 2007 9:39 am

Maybe I missed something but I haven't read anyone state in this thread that the company tried to screw us. My honest feeling is they didn't pay attention to a problem (capping) until it became big enough that they had to spend the money to fix it...malicious? No. Negligent? Yes.

As for the idea that we should all quiet down for fear of limiting future selection in Ontario and jeopardizing brewers wanting to ship here...I just don't agree. Are we so desperate for variety that we should have to accept sub standard goods that are not what we paid a premium price for?

Bobbyok · Post by **Bobbyok** » Thu Jan 11, 2007 9:55 am

JonWalker wrote:Maybe I missed something but I haven't read anyone state in this thread that the company tried to screw us.

Perhaps I'm misinterpreting, but here's one example:

If any manufacturer provides any product that arrives in damaged condition that likely is the result of poor performance by the manufacturer...the manufacturer should make good on it.

By suggesting that the manufacturer should make good on poor performance, is this not implying that the manufacturer, in this case, has not made good? And if you're implying the manufacturer has not made good, is that not implying that they're screwing you over?

Jon Walker wrote:As for the idea that we should all quiet down for fear of limiting future selection in Ontario and jeopardizing brewers wanting to ship here...I just don't agree.

I don't think you should quiet down, you are free to voice your opinion, as I have voiced mine. Which is why I said this:

But I digress, because the free market system I hold near and dear and that I'd dearly love to see allows any and all criticism such as that which is happening here.

Feel free to criticize, so long as you are prepared for the consequences of that criticism.

Jon Walker · Post by **Jon Walker** » Thu Jan 11, 2007 10:09 am

I think you're splitting hairs and in the end whether they screwed us or not...the end result was that people didn't get what they paid for or what they expected to get. Everyone's entitled to their perspective, this is a forum, but it's a bit contradictory to caution people about the consequences for expressing their dissatisfaction and at the same time support their right to do so.

Anyway...having said all that I think I'm going to withdraw from further comment on this topic. The situation with HOTD frustrates me and all this back and forth about semantics really gets us nowhere. It happened, nothing will come of it, I'm moving on.

Belgian · Post by **Belgian** » Thu Jan 11, 2007 10:40 am

Bobbyok wrote:...On the one hand, potential customers read this and think twice about buying from HOTD (or microbrewers in general). On the other, North American Microbrewers can also read it and think twice about doing a private order to Ontario...

Re: people 'reading this' & the implication we should not be so vocal:

I doubt any beer-literate consumer would think badly of 'microbrewers in general' given the RateBeer top-ranked beers. Good ones remain good, and disappointing ones fall away, as ever.

American brewers' reluctance to sell Ontarians beer has more to do with our market being rather limited while at the same time grossly encumbered by LCBO business practices. Suppliers don't LIKE the LCBO, because the LC give them very little hope of building up business here on the strength of their product. These brewers don't really care about HOTD's problems.

Bobbyok · Post by **Bobbyok** » Thu Jan 11, 2007 12:04 pm

Jon Walker wrote:... but it's a bit contradictory to caution people about the consequences for expressing their dissatisfaction and at the same time support their right to do so.

This could be the source of our disagreement on the issue. I don't see these two things as contradictory. I support the right for people to take an action. Actions have consequences. In my opinion, cautioning of consequences is not equivalent to condemning the action.

Wheatsheaf · Post by **Wheatsheaf** » Thu Jan 11, 2007 3:27 pm

Has anyone contacted the private ordering dept. to find out exactly what their policy on this is? It's fine to come here and vent your frustrations, it's definitely appropriate to alert the brewery about the problems, but if you're looking for someone to make amends, start with the folks that cashed your cheque or charged your credit card: the LCBO. Isn't that what you'd do with any other defective product?

I'm not excusing HotD. They're obviously to blame for the problem, and their response has certainly been pretty lame. But, honestly, what action could they take to correct the situation? Ship some replacement beer? Mail refunds to dissatisfied customers? Expense and practical issues aside, HotD couldn't ship anything without the LCBO intervening. As for the second, HotD itself might still be waiting to receive payment for the order.

I doubt that there's an easy resolution to this mess, but I can't imagine anything happening at all without getting the LCBO involved.

esprit · Post by **esprit** » Fri Jan 12, 2007 12:44 pm

The brewery would receive payment about 45 days after the beer arrived in the warehouse. The LCBO's policy on Consignment and Private Stock orders has been the same as it is for retail...full refund for defective product (there is a time limit though but I think it's 90 days). You'd have to drive down to Freeland St. with your defective bottle and proof of purchase (made out in your name so if you split a case, the person who bought has to do it) and fill out a form and they should them give you a refund.
As for the LCBO going after the supplier, since they've already paid by now, there's not much they can do but issue a debit and wait for more orders at which time they could charge them, however, if the problem is minor, they probably wouldn't do even that. It would have to a whole order that was screwed up badly before they would take action against the supplier.
Caveat emptor! This is one of the downsides of private orders...I could give you guys a million horror stories about what I've been through in the past 15 years.

Bobbyok · Post by **Bobbyok** » Fri Jan 12, 2007 12:55 pm

esprit wrote:The brewery would receive payment about 45 days after the beer arrived in the warehouse. The LCBO's policy on Consignment and Private Stock orders has been the same as it is for retail...full refund for defective product (there is a time limit though but I think it's 90 days). You'd have to drive down to Freeland St. with your defective bottle and proof of purchase (made out in your name so if you split a case, the person who bought has to do it) and fill out a form and they should them give you a refund.
As for the LCBO going after the supplier, since they've already paid by now, there's not much they can do but issue a debit and wait for more orders at which time they could charge them, however, if the problem is minor, they probably wouldn't do even that. It would have to a whole order that was screwed up badly before they would take action against the supplier.
Caveat emptor! This is one of the downsides of private orders...I could give you guys a million horror stories about what I've been through in the past 15 years.

So basically, anyone here who is unhappy with what they got can bring it back for a full refund and the LCBO eats it? Given their business logic they'd probably bring in that brewers beer in a seasonal release just to recoup their money.

emjay · Post by **emjay** » Sat Feb 17, 2007 12:33 am

I just opened my case of Doggie Claws today and almost cried when it poured as flat as milk... the aroma was nice but it tasted harsh and frankly, awful. I was hoping I could just age it and maybe it would improve, but after reading this I'm furious. I've never waited so long or spent so much on a case of beer as this, and it ends up being from a batch that is widely recognized as being bad and the brewer won't own up to it. I don't know what to do...

GregClow · Post by **GregClow** » Sat Feb 17, 2007 12:23 pm

emjay wrote:I just opened my case of Doggie Claws today and almost cried when it poured as flat as milk... the aroma was nice but it tasted harsh and frankly, awful.

If the brewer is to be believed, the flatness was intentional. Personally, I hated it - the lack of even subtle carbonation meant that there was no body to keep the harsh, hot edges of the flavour in check. So disappointing, especially considering how much I liked the older version of the beer.

Anyway, I had luckily only gotten 3 bottles of it from a friend who had ordered a case, and he actually enjoyed it and was willing to take them back in exchange for a couple of other beers. So it worked out OK for me in the end. But I feel bad for you and others who are stuck with a case of this stuff...