The Bar Towel

At the end of the day, the discussion about marketing funds (of MDF - market development funds) has two angles. From a regulator's (i.e. LCBO) perspective it's about "not being socially responsible" and encouraging drinking through promotions (funny how many promotions the LCBO runs). It's also related to hiding discounts in a regulatory environment that tries to set minimum prices (social responsibility stuff again).

The other angle is about creative marketing. I think we all agree that any company that finds a better way to get to their customers is a good competitor. Innovation and creativity are laudable for craft or industrial players alike.

The problem lies in when these two forces meet. If you want market forces, be careful of when you skew the market in favour of some 'control'. When you have built a half century of exclusivity into distribution through the BS for the industrial players, you can't just make exceptions on MDF practises that favour those entrenched players and their deep pockets.

Either you ban the buying of tap space or you open up the playing field to all sorts of creative marketing that would give new players a chance to have their products presented to the market, even if it's as simple as letting them compete on price with no floor. If molbats are in the position to grease every firkin pub to present their product and have the capital to exclude others through bribery, then there has to be a fair market route for craft brewers to reach the market to. Ontario craft brewers are also taxpayers and should not be victims of legislation that favours their industrial competitors, such as the whole BS monopoly.

markaberrant wrote:Why are "incentives" perfectly acceptable (and in some ways legislated as such) in every other industry? Even in liquor retail it is allowed (ie; buying a shelf cap, buying eye level shelf space, buying cold storage space, etc).

So ... bribes and kickbacks are legal and / or ethical?

I seem to remember something in the news about the mayor of Montreal taking a vacation recently ...

JasonTremblay wrote: So ... bribes and kickbacks are legal and / or ethical?

I seem to remember something in the news about the mayor of Montreal taking a vacation recently ...

There is a big difference if the bribes/kickbacks are for personal gain or if they are being done as govt/political favours, as compared to private business.

Ever heard of Sierra Nevada Beer Camp? Who do you think they originally created it for? Good thing SN isn't located in Ontario, or the Bar Towel lynch mob would have been knocking on their door...

http://www.edmontonjournal.com/health/T ... story.html

Some of the more blatant stuff might also violate the federal Competition Act, as I previously mentioned (predatory pricing, price discrimination, etc) depending on the exact circumstances.

After touring the new Amsterdam facility today, I may have to rethink 'craft'. Not that what they've built is bad, but it's pretty frikin huge for a Canadian 'craft' brewery.

It's also sooo much cleaner that the old one. We won't be getting any surprise seasonal spontaneously fermented sours from them!

More fuel for the fire. Terribly written, but on topic...

http://www.thegridto.com/life/food-drin ... dian-cred/

Tapsucker wrote:More fuel for the fire. Terribly written, but on topic...

http://www.thegridto.com/life/food-drin ... dian-cred/

I've certainly had the odd Barking Squirrel at a few Brampton places, and no it's not that bad and does have more flavour than standard Molbatts stuff.

But it's a bit of an odd article for her to write this week when there's so much going on in beer right now...there's nothing new in this article...

Agreed. Everyone's definition is subjective (as this thread has proved) but to me Hop City is not craft.

Midlife, why isn't it? I would say it is, based on ingredients and preparation. Perhaps you say it isn't because it's not independent? Certainly, the Brewer's Association would agree with you, not me.

chris_schryer wrote:Midlife, why isn't it? I would say it is, based on ingredients and preparation. Perhaps you say it isn't because it's not independent? Certainly, the Brewer's Association would agree with you, not me.

What does that mean though? There are a lot of terrible beers that use good ingredients and are "hand crafted". Not saying that I think this of Hop City, there beers are generally at least decent.

Midlife, why isn't it? I would say it is, based on ingredients and preparation. Perhaps you say it isn't because it's not independent? Certainly, the Brewer's Association would agree with you, not me.

So is Creemore also craft then? (Don't get me wrong, I drink lots of Creemore and don't boycott it because it is owned by Molson). But I just think there has to be an element of overall size in the definition of craft, including size of the ultimate ownership group if they are also brewers. It's all subjective though and as such perhaps it is a bit meaningless.

JerCraigs wrote:

chris_schryer wrote:Midlife, why isn't it? I would say it is, based on ingredients and preparation.

What does that mean though? There are a lot of terrible beers that use good ingredients and are "hand crafted".

Yeah those are called 'bad craft beers.'

midlife crisis wrote:So is Creemore also craft then? (Don't get me wrong, I drink lots of Creemore and don't boycott it because it is owned by Molson). But I just think there has to be an element of overall size in the definition of craft...

I think size usually (incidentally) is associated with quality. You don't necessarily build a huge operation to serve a craft market.

Though any large MolBatt facility could, if it wanted, make great beer. They have the capacity and the skilled brewing talent. Indeed some Euro breweries are like big craft breweries.

But size is incidental, even if its strongly correlated. MO.

I tend to agree with Belgian, size isn't always an indicator of craftiness. I would consider Creemore to be craft, yes. No adjuncts at all in their beers (even things that I would think of as acceptable), unpasteurized, etc. Paulaner produces over 2 million hecs per year, but I still think of them as craft. I know a lot of people would disagree, but whatever. They would still qualify under the Brewer's Association definition.

And yes, there is, sadly, examples of bad craft beer. I have two spectres of evil staring at me every time I look at my pile of beer...

Belgian's last statement (size is incidental but correlated) is exactly my view.

Some large European breweries, or large for their market, indeed make great beer. Examples exist in England, Belgium, Austria, Germany, Italy, Czech Republic.

Our large concerns could certainly ramp up to that quality level, i.e., what they would see as full-flavoured beers, I'm not talking about ISO-type quality. So far they have chosen not to apart from the experiments with craft-style releases or brewing units that we are discussing. But they could and will if they see the market going there big time. Or some of them will anyway, others may choose to be light beer specialists.

If this happens, then the correlation factor will change. But right now...

Gary