I had some Durham Hop Head cask at C’est What? last week. Great beer.
What wasn’t so lovely was the price -- $7.40 for a pint that had more than an inch-and-a-half of foam. This type of "pint" would have been thrown back at the bartender in any pub in England, where they expect a pint to be a pint.
I usually go to the Done Right Inn on Queen West, where a properly poured pint of MacLean’s Pale Ale (delicious) goes for $5.50, or the Rhino where a pint of cask, usually Durham, goes for about the same price, if not a bit cheaper.
Is $7.40 a pint for a local beer the going rate these days in Toronto pubs? This seems a little steep, at best. What is the usual price around the city for a pint of a micro brew?
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Pub prices
I typically find that pints of local brews range in price from place to place, but they normally fall within the $5.00 to $6.25 range.
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Jon Walker
- Seasoned Drinker
- Posts: 1899
- Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2001 8:00 pm
- Location: Wherever you go there you are
There are endless threads on this forum debating the price of pints. All I'll say in summary of them is that establishments charge what they think they need to in order to make a profit on top of overhead (which varies significantly from place to place). They also price their beer based upon what the clientele will pay (hello $9 Blue at a strip joint or sports stadium).
Bottom line, if you don't like the price don't drink there. Also, if you don't like the pour send it back. You're paying for a pint, you should get a pint (don't get me started on places that call their beers pints but offer them in a 16oz sleeve).
Bottom line, if you don't like the price don't drink there. Also, if you don't like the pour send it back. You're paying for a pint, you should get a pint (don't get me started on places that call their beers pints but offer them in a 16oz sleeve).
I don't always piss in a bottle but when I do...I prefer to call it Dos Equis.
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dutchcanuck
- Posts: 485
- Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2007 12:19 pm
- Location: St. Catharines, Ontario
The Real Estate must be pretty expensive at downtown places lite ?C'est What? Smokeless, BeerBistro, and Volo - either the rent is sky-high or the property taxes are municipal rape. Nobody wins in Toronto's "unreal estate" market.
Tap houses farther-flung ARE the places to drink if a cheaper pint - and not a fashionable locale - is your prime criterion. Maybe we can't have it both ways, and getting tanked up cheaply on gritty Queen-west-west is acceptable some days.
By the way, the ?C'est What? staff appear to be very concerned and responsive so WHY be afraid to tell them directly of the short pour? Anyone can make mistakes. I once admitted to the server that my food wasn't great and they did not charge me a cent for it - just an example of customer good will.
Tap houses farther-flung ARE the places to drink if a cheaper pint - and not a fashionable locale - is your prime criterion. Maybe we can't have it both ways, and getting tanked up cheaply on gritty Queen-west-west is acceptable some days.
By the way, the ?C'est What? staff appear to be very concerned and responsive so WHY be afraid to tell them directly of the short pour? Anyone can make mistakes. I once admitted to the server that my food wasn't great and they did not charge me a cent for it - just an example of customer good will.
In Beerum Veritas
The last round I bought in Toronto, Summer 2008 was actually at C'est What and was Durham Hophead and with tax and tip came close to $20 for two 'Canadian pints' which is anything from a 'large glass' to an underfilled half litre.
The prices in T.O. and Ontario as a whole are fairly extortionate. I simply don't find I can justify paying $8-10(don't forget the tax and tip) for a short measure half litre. Do real pint glasses or lined pint glasses actually exist in Canadian pubs. The country is metric after all.
On the issue of rents/property taxes being expensive... these are businesses and make a profit, not charities hanging on by their finger nails to provide beer nerds with tasty beverages. Don't forget profits are slim and success unlikely in the hospitality business be it in Canada or the UK. I feel the prices charged are unjustified and are well beyond my beer budget. When I'm in the UK I will pay 2.50 to 3 pounds a pint in London and the South East and between 2 pounds to 2.30 at pubs in the North. When in Canada I can't afford the equivalent of five pounds a pint and nor can I justify the expense. Then to add insult to injury the large glass of beer will always arrive at the table with a bit missing. Did the waitress get thirsty? I can serve myself and by-pass the tip thing except the bar keep wants their cut instead.
When I arrived in Canada twenty years ago beer in a 'pub' was twice the price of the UK but I could justify the expense as I was earning double the money. Now, beer in a pub is still twice the price but I don't even earn the equivalent to my expected UK salary. Beyond my price point!
The prices in T.O. and Ontario as a whole are fairly extortionate. I simply don't find I can justify paying $8-10(don't forget the tax and tip) for a short measure half litre. Do real pint glasses or lined pint glasses actually exist in Canadian pubs. The country is metric after all.
On the issue of rents/property taxes being expensive... these are businesses and make a profit, not charities hanging on by their finger nails to provide beer nerds with tasty beverages. Don't forget profits are slim and success unlikely in the hospitality business be it in Canada or the UK. I feel the prices charged are unjustified and are well beyond my beer budget. When I'm in the UK I will pay 2.50 to 3 pounds a pint in London and the South East and between 2 pounds to 2.30 at pubs in the North. When in Canada I can't afford the equivalent of five pounds a pint and nor can I justify the expense. Then to add insult to injury the large glass of beer will always arrive at the table with a bit missing. Did the waitress get thirsty? I can serve myself and by-pass the tip thing except the bar keep wants their cut instead.
When I arrived in Canada twenty years ago beer in a 'pub' was twice the price of the UK but I could justify the expense as I was earning double the money. Now, beer in a pub is still twice the price but I don't even earn the equivalent to my expected UK salary. Beyond my price point!
Yeah PubStyle ALL general Ontario pricing can get a little 'extortionate' - I do know what you mean by that. It can seemkind of obnoxious and foolish given the much slower upward movement in wages.
Toronto (amazingly for such a big metro) can often seem like a desperately boring business town. Crass.
Toronto (amazingly for such a big metro) can often seem like a desperately boring business town. Crass.
In Beerum Veritas
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Steve Beaumont
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Just FYI, some basic math vis-a-vis draught beer. (And please note that I'm not picking on Steamwhistle, just using them as an example because their kegs are available through The Beer Store and thus their pricing info is immediately accessible.)
50l keg of Steamwhistle = $229.95 (the most economical keg size)
1 keg = 88 Imperial pints
subtract 5% for spillage = 83.5 pints
cost per pint = $2.75
absolute bottom end 100% mark-up = $5.50/pint
plus 15% tax (10% provincial liquor tax + GST) = $6.32/pint
And there is NO WAY a downtown bar can cover its costs with only a 100% mark-up. The villain here is not the bar, but the taxation structure that makes it so difficult to sell beer for a profit at less than $6.50/pint. Bars in lower rent areas might be able to do it, but downtown is an expensive place to be.
50l keg of Steamwhistle = $229.95 (the most economical keg size)
1 keg = 88 Imperial pints
subtract 5% for spillage = 83.5 pints
cost per pint = $2.75
absolute bottom end 100% mark-up = $5.50/pint
plus 15% tax (10% provincial liquor tax + GST) = $6.32/pint
And there is NO WAY a downtown bar can cover its costs with only a 100% mark-up. The villain here is not the bar, but the taxation structure that makes it so difficult to sell beer for a profit at less than $6.50/pint. Bars in lower rent areas might be able to do it, but downtown is an expensive place to be.
This man speaks the truth! The only gouging here is being done by the government, as I don't see the owners of any of the popular Toronto haunts cruising around town in their gold-plated limos. Also, a bit more of a global perspective helps. Pints in England are getting to be ridiculously expensive, and in Tokyo I was paying $10 for a regular draft beer - both mostly due to taxation. My presumption is there is more of a break in the States which allows beer to be sold at a lesser price both in retail stores and in bars.Steve Beaumont wrote:Just FYI, some basic math vis-a-vis draught beer. (And please note that I'm not picking on Steamwhistle, just using them as an example because their kegs are available through The Beer Store and thus their pricing info is immediately accessible.)
50l keg of Steamwhistle = $229.95 (the most economical keg size)
1 keg = 88 Imperial pints
subtract 5% for spillage = 83.5 pints
cost per pint = $2.75
absolute bottom end 100% mark-up = $5.50/pint
plus 15% tax (10% provincial liquor tax + GST) = $6.32/pint
And there is NO WAY a downtown bar can cover its costs with only a 100% mark-up. The villain here is not the bar, but the taxation structure that makes it so difficult to sell beer for a profit at less than $6.50/pint. Bars in lower rent areas might be able to do it, but downtown is an expensive place to be.
Edited to add - If you want a cheaper beer head down to Volo on Monday pint night. I popped in with the missus just after work and the place was pretty quiet. Grand River Jubilation and Denison's Dunkel for $5 a pop... you can't complain!
I haven't lived in the west end for some time, but I do occasionally get back to Rhino. They have consistently (for years) been one of the best values for beer and food. Often I wonder how they pay their bills!
It may not be fair to compare others to Rhino's prices, but they earned my loyalty when I lived in the area and I sure hope they can thrive with such a customer first approach.
It may not be fair to compare others to Rhino's prices, but they earned my loyalty when I lived in the area and I sure hope they can thrive with such a customer first approach.
I'm pretty sure that the family that owns Rhino also owns the building. They've been there for so long that they might not even be paying a mortgage anymore. So that would reduce their costs a fair bit.Tapsucker wrote:I haven't lived in the west end for some time, but I do occasionally get back to Rhino. They have consistently (for years) been one of the best values for beer and food. Often I wonder how they pay their bills!
(Note: Just speculation on my part - I'm not 100% sure of this, esp. the bit about them having no mortgage currently - but it could be an explanation.)
You could be right Greg, but even if not, they've owned the building since the 70's I believe, and they have apartments upstairs that help with the bills
That being said, I don't think the owners spend a dime on upkeep. It's dirty and dim, and if and when I go there I stick to bottled beer. They don't clean their beerlines (staff have told me) and 2 weeks ago I got an all-day splitting headache from 2 pints of Hockley Dark the night before. It wasn't the quantity. Plus, there’s only one bartender there that knows how to pull a pint of cask ale.
Frustrates me because I'm in the 'hood and even though I gave the place up for awhile, nothing has changed.
The Rhino is definitely at the low end of the price scale but you take your chances. I much prefer the $6-8 range at the bars that care about what they serve.
That being said, I don't think the owners spend a dime on upkeep. It's dirty and dim, and if and when I go there I stick to bottled beer. They don't clean their beerlines (staff have told me) and 2 weeks ago I got an all-day splitting headache from 2 pints of Hockley Dark the night before. It wasn't the quantity. Plus, there’s only one bartender there that knows how to pull a pint of cask ale.
Frustrates me because I'm in the 'hood and even though I gave the place up for awhile, nothing has changed.
The Rhino is definitely at the low end of the price scale but you take your chances. I much prefer the $6-8 range at the bars that care about what they serve.