Victory Prima Pils

[esprit]

cannondale, have you seen the LCBO Product Packaging Standards? It's almost 50 pages long. Half of what's in it has been there for the past 15 years and never been enforced. If every aspect of those standards had to be compliant, I would not have a single beer on the market in Ontario and dozens of other brands would be gone as well. In the past year or two the LCBO has suddenly decided to enforce various aspects of it's standards. They are now making hundreds of thousands of dollars from imposing penalties for non-compliance. Many of the major brands of wine, spirits and beer in the LCBO are non-compliant with one of more of the standards. You don't seem them de-listing Wolf Blass or refusing to buy FUZION Rose, neither of which are compliant. They pick and choose what they wish to enforce and against whom. Prior to this year, I had never once heard of an anti-skid cohesive but there it is, all 2 lines on page whatever and suddently it's an issue which was never an issue and now subject to penalties.

[pootz]

My sympathy goes out to agents like Peter and R&R who have US micro clients with product in demand markets south of us. They do the best they can for the small beer geek community but regrettably they fight a mouse verses leviathan battle.

Watching the US micros disappear from state liquor monopoly shelves and hearing the rationale reaffirms my opinion that the bureaucratic arrogance of this monolithic, highly political monopoly knows no bounds or reason. They seem more focused on satisfying internal agendas and policies than serving the consumer base.

Yes, of course Anchor steam or Brooklyn will not sell like Brava or Wildcat....were the sales expectations even grounded in market realities? What can be expected in a zero product marketing environment where TBS triumverate own beer distribution and exert protectionist influence on politicians running the liquor monopoly. New import products go through a slow consumer base incline...it takes time and exposure in this hyper restricted market to familiarize consumers with a new product.

I will go a step further and say that it appears that there is political prejudice in play particularly against US suppliers. That old anti-yank neurosis seems to have permeated the rarified air of booze monopoly autocrats.

Again I have to ponder just what it is a politically correct, crony protectionist government import and retail monopoly can do for the consumer the free market private sector can't.

[cannondale]

cannondale, have you seen the LCBO Product Packaging Standards? It's almost 50 pages long. Half of what's in it has been there for the past 15 years and never been enforced. If every aspect of those standards had to be compliant, I would not have a single beer on the market in Ontario and dozens of other brands would be gone as well. In the past year or two the LCBO has suddenly decided to enforce various aspects of it's standards. They are now making hundreds of thousands of dollars from imposing penalties for non-compliance. Many of the major brands of wine, spirits and beer in the LCBO are non-compliant with one of more of the standards. You don't seem them de-listing Wolf Blass or refusing to buy FUZION Rose, neither of which are compliant. They pick and choose what they wish to enforce and against whom. Prior to this year, I had never once heard of an anti-skid cohesive but there it is, all 2 lines on page whatever and suddently it's an issue which was never an issue and now subject to penalties.

The LCBO is accountable to us. I think that they should make available to the public a document that outlines the justification for each and every one of their packaging and chemical testing quality assurance standards. No questions asked.

Has this been approached in the past in any sense?

[Dokta Owange]

look where we have come in the past couple of years re: US Micros...at least we have some regular listed items now.

[cannondale]

look where we have come in the past couple of years re: US Micros...at least we have some regular listed items now.

Absolutely. Things are most definitely looking up. No complaints there.

But if one is to take what esprit is saying here at face value, then that is a problem regardless. If I were an import agent, I would certainly want to know (a) what are the standards that my products must meet and (b) what is the justification for each and every one of those standards.

[Belgian]

look where we have come in the past couple of years re: US Micros...at least we have some regular listed items now.

Absolutely. Things are most definitely looking up. No complaints there.

But if one is to take what esprit is saying here at face value, then that is a problem regardless. If I were an import agent, I would certainly want to know (a) what are the standards that my products must meet and (b) what is the justification for each and every one of those standards.

Ah you mean like "accountability"LOL..But would the importers not have thought of that already? I'd like to hear what they have to say about it.

In other wonderful news: How do you guys feel about paying billions to support all these auto-worker pensions? Do you personally even HAVE company pensions? I don't give a crap about the Big Three automakers or the junk cars they sell here - let alone the financial mess they leave after skimming their big profits. Why should you and I retire leaner to make someone else richer.

Our system is screwing us every chance it gets.

[GregClow]

In other wonderful news: How do you guys feel about paying billions to support all these auto-worker pensions?

Belgian, I know that you like going off on tangents, but this is so far off-topic for this thread (and frankly, this forum as a whole) that it's ridiculous.

[esprit]

cannondale, the last time I seriously questioned the LCBO's rationale behind it's satndards and enforcement, my agency had the distinction of being the only agency in Ontario whose products would not be tested by the LCBO nor would it's labels and cartons be tested. For a period of 4 months I was told I would either need CFIA approval or private lab approval for my products, all at the cost of thousands of dollars more than what I was paying the LCBO. That's what happens when you "question" the LCBO. Frankly, your unrepenting defence of the LCBO disturbs me...much of the slime tossed at them is perhaps not justified...my slime is...their actions are often indefensible. They are authoritarian and some of them are downright vindictive and none of it serves the public's interest...ithey care more about establishing that they are in charge and they dare not be questioned.

[Dokta Owange]

Esprit - in reading these posts, and a lot of previous ones, you seem to take a lot of crap at the expense of the people bashing LCBO, and it is not right.

You are doing a great job cracking open the door to great beer we can get at our doorstep.


If things smooth over with the logistics re: DFH60, could...we possibly see more DFH offerings down the road? Are there other US micros that you are pursuing that we could 'hypothetically' drool about?

Keep up the good work!
Cheers!

[Belgian]

For a period of 4 months I was told I would either need CFIA approval or private lab approval for my products, all at the cost of thousands of dollars more than what I was paying the LCBO. That's what happens when you "question" the LCBO..

Wow it really looks like the LCBO punished you for speaking up about their inconsistent policy. That's an outrage.

[tuqueboy]

cannondale, have you seen the LCBO Product Packaging Standards? It's almost 50 pages long.

for the record, folks:
http://www.lcbo.com/images/pdfs/lcbo_pr ... ndards.pdf

[cannondale]

cannondale, the last time I seriously questioned the LCBO's rationale behind it's satndards and enforcement, my agency had the distinction of being the only agency in Ontario whose products would not be tested by the LCBO nor would it's labels and cartons be tested. For a period of 4 months I was told I would either need CFIA approval or private lab approval for my products, all at the cost of thousands of dollars more than what I was paying the LCBO. That's what happens when you "question" the LCBO. Frankly, your unrepenting defence of the LCBO disturbs me...much of the slime tossed at them is perhaps not justified...my slime is...their actions are often indefensible. They are authoritarian and some of them are downright vindictive and none of it serves the public's interest...ithey care more about establishing that they are in charge and they dare not be questioned.

In what sense does suggesting that the LCBO ought to be more transparent and accountable to the import agent(s), and by extension the end customer, when it comes their quality standards consitute their defence?

[esprit]

Chances of more DFH products being offerred to the LCBO...at this point 0! They refuse to submit any seasonals and will also not offer any beers for the General List later this year. DFH60 stands a good chance of being withdrawn...they are fed up. As to new U.S. micros, we'll see what penalties Victory is assessed on Prima Pils and then know if we can do anything else. We are trying to to re-establish a relationship with Smuttynose, a supplier whose beers were once in the market but who also withdrew because of the hassles and lack of consistent business. That's it for now and I'm sure R & R can confirm that most U.S. micros could care less about this ridiculous market. I for one pray for a strike but I don't seriously believe that any government will have the balls to change the system. Like someone said, if Mike Harris didn't do it then certainly Dalton McWhimpy won't.

[Belgian]

We are trying to to re-establish a relationship with Smuttynose, a supplier whose beers were once in the market but who also withdrew because of the hassles and lack of consistent business. That's it for now and I'm sure R & R can confirm that most U.S. micros could care less about this ridiculous market. .

It IS ridiculous! I have directly expressed support to a few producers in the US and abroad who once had fantastic products here, and they basically described to me exactly what Esprit is talking about. Way too much jumping thru hoops for what amounts to a very tenuous and, frankly, pretty lousy business relatiionship.

It's screwed up! I give the importers lots of credit for dealing with this ridiculous system, evidently with a thick-skinned sense of humor. I'm sure it would drive some people apesh-t.

Messed up as some things may be, Ontario is still a great place to live, and I hope Prima Pils does well here.

[Ale's What Cures Ya]

Any updates on Prima Pils?