LCBO Private Ordering

JWalter · Post by **JWalter** » Tue Jul 01, 2003 3:12 am

Hi Gang - Wanted to start a thread to share what I'm exploring and see if you've had any experience with - LCBO's Private Ordering.

I filled out a form on the LCBO web site:

http://www.lcbo.com/programs_services/p ... index.html

Curious to how it would work, what the pricing would be,etc... I requested a quote for Sierra Nevada Pale Ale. Rec'd back a real snail mail letter - that's right in my mailbox! Crazy eh? It had a Order form that had been completed by HAND with the details...

Here's a quote from the attached letter:

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Dear Mr. Walter:

In response to your request for the above-mentioned product, I have contact the Seira Nevada Brewing Company and have been advised of the following;

Based on a (1) case minimum order, the cost is approximately $53.40 per case, freight and taxes included. 24 x 341 ml bottles per case. Please note there is a 25% prepaid deposit of $13.35 required per case.

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That doesn't seem too bad really, I mean, a decent 6-pack from the beer store is about $11 or so right? So $11 x 4 - $44 - So the Sierra Nevada would only run an extra $10, or another way to look at it - divide that $10 by 24 and it's an extra 40 cents per beer - Not too shabby...

I followed-up with an email to find out how long it would take (as the notes included in the letter mentioned up to 3 months!) how I go ahead with an order, how to pay, etc. And rec'd a response within an hour:

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The completed Order Form and Laboratory Waiver, along with the deposit should be faxed or mailed to the address below. The deposit may be paid by credit card or cheque. Cheque should be made payable to the Liquor Control Board of Ontario.

With regards to the expected time of arrival, yes shipping could possibly take up to three months. Your one case would be consolidated with several other orders.

Attn: Sylvia Ramirez
Specialty Services-Private Ordering
33 Freeland Street
Toronto, ON
M5E 1L7

Fax: (416)365-5934

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So there it is - Not too bad, not too unfair, the 3 months is a bit long though, but I suppose if you plan in advance, this service can be used to get some decent beer, and as far as I'm concerned while the price paid is a premium, it isn't totally out of control...

Anyone else have experience using the service, good news, bad news??

[ This Message was edited by: JWalter on 2003-07-01 03:14 ]

[ This Message was edited by: JWalter on 2003-07-01 03:14 ]

scott097 · Post by **scott097** » Tue Jul 01, 2003 11:47 am

Just so you know, while I was at Premier Gourmet this weekend, the Sierra Nevada Pale Ale was in stock (in fact, I picked up a couple bottles for a friend) and they ran me $1.59US (plus $.05 deposite) per bottle. If you don't want to wait for 3 weeks, and you want to check out the Pizza Plant or whatever, you might want to go ahead and make a day trip out of it. A lot more fun than waiting for the LCBO! If you're aiming for the most cost effective way to get it, it seems like it'll be cheaper to stay at home than it will be to spend the money on gas and duty to drive to Kenmore, NY.

That info you have is good to know, I've shyed away from testing out that service, but I guess you never know until you try.

Scott

Jon Walker · Post by **Jon Walker** » Tue Jul 01, 2003 12:54 pm

First off, you're lucky that they'll even ship to you in such a small quantity. Many other breweries wouldn't consider single case orders. If you're going to all this effort why not get several cases...it'll likely lower the cost per case. You're also lucky they can waive the lab fee. Several products I've wanted in the past were made impossible by the $150+ cost for that.

I've only successfully used their system via Esprit when I privately ordered a few cases of Brakspear from England last summer. It was a "piggy back" order as the LCBO were already importing from the brewery in volume. It does seem a reasonable price considering the shipping and duty required to obtain product from California but you are at the mercy of others ordering as well. They'll likely only ship once they have a full palette order which could take longer than three months...depends on how much demand their is.

It might well proove faster, and would work out to about the same price (or slightly less) to just go down to P.G. and get some yourself. I'm sure you could arrange with Lyle to set aside some or at least let you know when it's in heavy stock in order to ensure it'll be there when you go down.

Good luck!

[ This Message was edited by: Jon Walker on 2003-07-01 13:01 ]

esprit · Post by **esprit** » Tue Jul 01, 2003 2:00 pm

You're dreaming if you think that the case of Sierra Nevada will ever arrive here...furthermore, if it ever did, I guarantee you that your cost will 2 or 3 times what the LCBO quoted...if you check with them I'm sure they'll tell you that your quote is not firm and that is subject to both currency fluctuation and application of actual freight costs...they've probably used a standard LCBO freight rate to calculate the price but they will in fact have to arrange for a truck to go the brewery to pick up your case and deliver it to their consolidator and I can guess that that will cost over USD100.00...the product will not doubt arrive with U.S. labelling and that will not be accepted by the lab because it will either be missing metric volume or alcohol content in which case you'll have to pay CAD5.00 per case to correct the labelling plus the cost of the labels themselves...finally, SIERRA NEVADA WILL NEVER DELIVER THE CASE. When the LCBO sends breweries an inquiry, they don't give them a quantity...when the brewery finds out you want a case or two they'll tell the LCBO to shove off...believe me, I've been in this business for 15 years and there's no way you're going to get these sorts of products through private ordering unless you're prepared to order 50 or 60 cases!

esprit · Post by **esprit** » Tue Jul 01, 2003 2:07 pm

One other comment in regards to the Lab Waiver...in fact, there is no such thing even though there is a form in existence...George Soleas, LCBO Director of Quality Control, will tell you that each and every product coming into the province is tested, waiver or no waiver. Any case you receive will be missing one bottle...furthermore, if you order any more than 9 litres of any product in a 12 month period, it will in fact be subject to a $135 lab charge...I should also add that I've been in touch with Sierra Nevada many times in regards to possible Canadian distribution of their products...their answer is always the same...they don't produce enough beer to satisfy U.S. demand so why would they want to jump through the hoops and red tape of the LCBO to sell something that they can readily sell in the U.S.. Hate to burst your balloon but Premier Gourmet is the only place close to Toronto where you're going to be able to get any Sierra Nevada.

esprit · Post by **esprit** » Tue Jul 01, 2003 2:16 pm

Just visited the LCBO website and saw the freight rate they're using for California and I was right...they're using the rate for cases delivered to their consolidator's warehouse in Sonoma...I will bet you dollars to doughnuts that the brewery quoted ex-brewery (they all do), meaning at the brewery door....that means that you have to cover the cost of getting one case of beer from the brewery to the warehouse and, again, I guarantee you that this is more than the beer is worth. Also, forget about 3 months...shipments from wine country where the LCBO picks up regularly can take 3 months...from Chico, CA you could be looking at 6 months.

Rubaiyat · Post by **Rubaiyat** » Wed Jul 02, 2003 12:14 pm

If I may just add my too sense -- or two cents -- the "Specialty Services" department of the LCBO which runs the "Private Ordering" department is the EXACT same department seasoned agents like Esprit and ourselves go through every day for all our "consignment" orders AND "private" orders -- NO ONE knows the system as well as we do -- you're far better off sticking to using us agents as your go-betweens (between the LCBO and the supplier, that is).

That's what we're here for.

You would find, incidentally, that if you DIRECTLY contacted these same people - the LCBO - and the brewery happened to be represented by one of us they would tell you just that and they would force you to go through us.

[ This Message was edited by: Rubaiyat on 2003-07-02 12:15 ]

JWalter · Post by **JWalter** » Wed Jul 02, 2003 1:18 pm

Whoa!

Thanks for the detailed responses and info, very, very enlightening... I guess it did seem too good to be true. At the same time, I'm very curious as to how this woman from the LCBO could be so incredibly out to lunch as to offer me this deal (and it clearly states 'based on a minimum order of ONE case
), so with your permission, Esprit, I'd like to forward your comments (I can forward them to her with or without your contact info - whatever you're more comfortable with...) - Because I'd like to give her a chance to respond, see what she has to say. It's not at all that I doubt what you've told me, I'm just really curious as to how there could be such an incredible disconnect... (Perhaps this girl is really new or something?)

joey_capps · Post by **joey_capps** » Wed Jul 02, 2003 1:34 pm

I wouldn't rock the boat yet. Wait and see what happens. If the LCBO accepts your deposit and then doesn't come trough, think you might have a case of bad faith marketing and advertising. Not that you would get anything for it.

Cheers, Joe.

[ This Message was edited by: joey_capps on 2003-07-02 13:34 ]

JWalter · Post by **JWalter** » Wed Jul 02, 2003 2:53 pm

On 2003-07-02 13:34, joey_capps wrote:
I wouldn't rock the boat yet. Wait and see what happens. If the LCBO accepts your deposit and then doesn't come trough, think you might have a case of bad faith marketing and advertising. Not that you would get anything for it.

I'd rather clear the air and find out before hand what the real deal is as opposed to wasting time and money going through with an order that seemingly is doomed to fail.

esprit · Post by **esprit** » Thu Jul 03, 2003 9:50 am

JWalter, feel free to use my comments but, for obvious reasons, I don't wish to be identified. You should also know that if the case were to show up and cost $100.00 and you refuse to take it, you'll lose your deposit.

JWalter · Post by **JWalter** » Thu Jul 03, 2003 3:57 pm

Esprit - Thanks - I'll copy & rephrase your comments, post it back to her as something I heard from a "knowledgable friend in the industry" and I'll post back here what I find out...

Thanks again!

JWalter · Post by **JWalter** » Fri Jul 04, 2003 11:51 am

Hi Gang, I just e-mailed Sylvia the following:


Thanks for the info. I was discussing this with a friend of mine in the industry and I was surprised when he mentioned the following points:

Order Size: He suspects when the brewery finds out I only want a case or two they'll probably not even bother filling an order this small.
Actual Cost vs. Quoted Cost: He felt that the actual order would cost 2 or 3 times what you quoted, can you comment on whether this quote is firm - is it subject to both currency fluctuation and application of actual freight costs?
Freight: He suspects that you've probably used a standard freight rate to calculate the price but will in fact have to arrange for a truck to go the brewery to pick up your case and deliver it to a consolidator which could cost over USD100.00.
Lab Waiver: He claims that there is no such thing even though there is a form in existence...Apparently each and every product coming into the province is tested, waiver or no waiver.
Labelling: He claims the product will arrive with U.S. labelling and that will not be accepted by the lab because it will either be missing metric volume or alcohol content in which case I'll have to pay CAD5.00 per case to correct the labelling plus the cost of the labels themselves.
Shipping Time: He explained that shipments from a wine country where the LCBO picks up regularly can take 3 months...from Chico, CA you could be looking at 6 months.

Apologies, I totally don't mean to bombard you with this stuff, I didn't want to just take his word for all of this and drop it, I wanted instead to clear the air and find out what your response would be before proceeding, could you please comment on these issues?


I'm interested to hear what she comes back with - I'll post her response if & when I get it...

Cheers!

JWalter · Post by **JWalter** » Fri Jul 04, 2003 3:01 pm

She replied quickly and basically refuted everything that Esprit brought up, so we're back to her initial quote - I'm ready to go ahead with the order, just for curiosity's sake now, and for what it's worth at least I've got a paper trail if any/all of these situations come true...

Here are the headings (for detail see post above) along with her -rather terse- response to each...

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Order Size: As per the supplier there is no minimum case requirement.

Actual Cost vs. Quoted Cost: The total cost per case is approximately $53.40 CAD including freight, taxes and mark up.

Freight: The product will be consolidated with many others out of California, therefore the rate would be approximately $8.00 CAD.

Lab Waiver: The product must always be lab tested if it is for resale only.

Labelling: This will not apply if you choose not to have the product lab tested.

Shipping Time: Orders arriving from California usually take up to 3 months.

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All I can say is 'Interesting' and at this point, there is only one way that I can see to find out who is right... Anyone else want a case of Sierra Nevada while I'm at it??

[ This Message was edited by: JWalter on 2003-07-04 15:02 ]

esprit · Post by **esprit** » Fri Jul 04, 2003 3:22 pm

Well, if I were you I'd certainly go ahead because you've got nothing to lose...if you've got her comments in black and white and the case arrives costing $100+, you can demand that your deposit be returned...frankly, I am very curious to see how this whole thing turns out.