The Bar Towel

Provincial review discussed in today's Star.

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/arti ... vince?bn=1

awesome.

Regulations like one preventing different microbreweries sharing a truck to ship their beers to, for example Toronto, might be changed.

John Romano of Burlington’s Nickel Brook brewery, is hoping for a craft brewery store, rather than relying on the LCBO and the Molson, Sleeman and Labatt-owned Beer Store for shelf space. Allowing easier inter-province sales would be another boon.

Please, let this happen.

Intersting story. This is the first time anywhere I have read where the law has been changed for all breweries, and not just an exemption for Beau's. With all the coverage Beau's got out of this, how long before other breweries decide to start up the same thing.

And for that matter, I wonder if the law requires deliveries to only be made to a home address. I mean if I worked in downtown Ottawa could I make an order from Beau's and pick it up from their truck parked in a parking spot at some centralized downtown location? With how well Beau's uses social networking if this was allowed I could totally see it working.

And if that was allowed, would it be possible for Beau's to load a truck up, post their inventory online and allow people to make orders using a computer or smart phone and then go and pick it up at the truck? Or do pick-ups from the brewery have to be made only after an order goes through. Because if not, assuming the rules is you can not buy your beer directly from a truck only online, then considering how many people have access to the internet, you could essentially have a rolling brewery owned beer store.

cmadd wrote:...Please, let this happen.

The real sea-change will occur when Canada is prepared to have a NAFTA fight. Craft beer stores, perhaps operated by OCB, are illegal in Canada under NAFTA rules since multinationals like InBev and Molson-Coors would not have shelf space.

Bu the likelihood that Canada would take on a NAFTA tribunal on this issue is slim to none.

Interprovincial trade rules easing is more likely.

zane9 wrote:

cmadd wrote:...Please, let this happen.

The real sea-change will occur when Canada is prepared to have a NAFTA fight. Craft beer stores, perhaps operated by OCB, are illegal in Canada under NAFTA rules since multinationals like InBev and Molson-Coors would not have shelf space.

I'm sure this has been asked here before, but just in case no... Why are private stores legal in other provinces and not Ontario? Nova Scotia doesn't have a brewery-owned beer retail system, but they do have private liquor stores. I don't recall ever seeing Molson Canadian at Premier?

I just don't understand how NAFTA means it can't happen in Ontario, yet in many other provinces there are various forms of private beer retailing. Can someone please clarify?

rejtable wrote:... Why are private stores legal in other provinces and not Ontario? Nova Scotia doesn't have a brewery-owned beer retail system, but they do have private liquor stores. I don't recall ever seeing Molson Canadian at Premier?

I just don't understand how NAFTA means it can't happen in Ontario, yet in many other provinces there are various forms of private beer retailing. Can someone please clarify?

I hope a NAFTA expert will speak up soon

Meantime, I think you're mixing up two issues. Private retail stores in Ontario don't exist because of the monopoly the government gives itself (LCBO as a Crown agency) and 3 multinationals (The Beer Store). The government does allow wine stores to operate (The Wine Rack), and they were grandfathered-in when NAFTA regulations came into effect. No new ones are allowed.

I don't know much about the system in Nova Scotia. Are there both private and government-owned stores in that province?

rejtable wrote:I just don't understand how NAFTA means it can't happen in Ontario, yet in many other provinces there are various forms of private beer retailing. Can someone please clarify?

I believe that's due to grandfathering. That's why the various private Ontario wine stores in Ontario are allowed to exist without NAFTA challenge.

zane9 wrote:

rejtable wrote:... Why are private stores legal in other provinces and not Ontario? Nova Scotia doesn't have a brewery-owned beer retail system, but they do have private liquor stores. I don't recall ever seeing Molson Canadian at Premier?

I just don't understand how NAFTA means it can't happen in Ontario, yet in many other provinces there are various forms of private beer retailing. Can someone please clarify?

I hope a NAFTA expert will speak up soon

Meantime, I think you're mixing up two issues. Private retail stores in Ontario don't exist because of the monopoly the government gives itself (LCBO as a Crown agency) and 3 multinationals (The Beer Store). The government does allow wine stores to operate (The Wine Rack), and they were grandfathered-in when NAFTA regulations came into effect. No new ones are allowed.

I don't know much about the system in Nova Scotia. Are there both private and government-owned stores in that province?

If I'm mixing it up, it's only because it was mentioned in the post I was referencing as a cause. I can fully understand why there are no private retail here in the sense of the government legislation not allowing it. i just don't see how it has anything to do with NAFTA, as that's a Canada thing, and Canada has lots of private liquor retail, some/much of it begun since NAFTA was born.

In NS, they have a NSLC, which is essentially the same as the LCBO. They also have a small handful of private stores that sell beer, wine and spirits. These have only been around maybe 10 years or so. I believe (could be wrong) that they aren't allowed to sell stuff that the NSLC carries.

rejtable wrote:

zane9 wrote:

rejtable wrote:... Why are private stores legal in other provinces and not Ontario? Nova Scotia doesn't have a brewery-owned beer retail system, but they do have private liquor stores. I don't recall ever seeing Molson Canadian at Premier?

I just don't understand how NAFTA means it can't happen in Ontario, yet in many other provinces there are various forms of private beer retailing. Can someone please clarify?

I hope a NAFTA expert will speak up soon

Meantime, I think you're mixing up two issues. Private retail stores in Ontario don't exist because of the monopoly the government gives itself (LCBO as a Crown agency) and 3 multinationals (The Beer Store). The government does allow wine stores to operate (The Wine Rack), and they were grandfathered-in when NAFTA regulations came into effect. No new ones are allowed.

I don't know much about the system in Nova Scotia. Are there both private and government-owned stores in that province?

If I'm mixing it up, it's only because it was mentioned in the post I was referencing as a cause. I can fully understand why there are no private retail here in the sense of the government legislation not allowing it. i just don't see how it has anything to do with NAFTA, as that's a Canada thing, and Canada has lots of private liquor retail, some/much of it begun since NAFTA was born.

In NS, they have a NSLC, which is essentially the same as the LCBO. They also have a small handful of private stores that sell beer, wine and spirits. These have only been around maybe 10 years or so. I believe (could be wrong) that they aren't allowed to sell stuff that the NSLC carries.

.

From reading other posts in other threads I think the only way NAFTA comes in would be if Ontario changed the liquor regulations to set up stores that only sold Ontario made beer. Since they would basically be government approved stores that would be legsliated to keep out products produced in the other NAFTA countries. With private stores in say BC or Alberta, they can sell local products, but there is nothing but the store owners preference that keeps them from selling products made in the US or Mexico.

Kel Varnsen wrote:[
From reading other posts in other threads I think the only way NAFTA comes in would be if Ontario changed the liquor regulations to set up stores that only sold Ontario made beer. Since they would basically be government approved stores that would be legsliated to keep out products produced in the other NAFTA countries. With private stores in say BC or Alberta, they can sell local products, but there is nothing but the store owners preference that keeps them from selling products made in the US or Mexico.

Ah, ok, this makes sense, thanks.

So, ON can do whatever it wants in terms of retail, as long as it isn't a "ON Craft Brewers store." I can see the NAFTA implications there, that's as good an explanation as I've seen.

Kel Varnsen wrote:...From reading other posts in other threads I think the only way NAFTA comes in would be if Ontario changed the liquor regulations to set up stores that only sold Ontario made beer. Since they would basically be government approved stores that would be legsliated to keep out products produced in the other NAFTA countries. With private stores in say BC or Alberta, they can sell local products, but there is nothing but the store owners preference that keeps them from selling products made in the US or Mexico.

I'm not entirely sure about the accuracy of Kel's post, but I just maybe too dumb to get it.

Let me recap. Imagine this hypothetical. A private store in Alberta that sells beer. Just craft beer. As a matter of store policy it refuses to sell any beer from any multinational beer company (like Molson, or InBev, etc.) There's a sign in the window that says "we sell only craft beer from Alberta and a selection of Canadian craft beer from coast-to-coast".

My understanding is that the above is illegal under NAFTA, regardless of whether it's a private store (like my Alberta example) or a government-owned store.

All private booze stores, in the provinces that permit them, exist only through government permission (relevant sections of legislation).

Kel Varnsen wrote:Intersting story. This is the first time anywhere I have read where the law has been changed for all breweries, and not just an exemption for Beau's. With all the coverage Beau's got out of this, how long before other breweries decide to start up the same thing.

And for that matter, I wonder if the law requires deliveries to only be made to a home address. I mean if I worked in downtown Ottawa could I make an order from Beau's and pick it up from their truck parked in a parking spot at some centralized downtown location? With how well Beau's uses social networking if this was allowed I could totally see it working.

And if that was allowed, would it be possible for Beau's to load a truck up, post their inventory online and allow people to make orders using a computer or smart phone and then go and pick it up at the truck? Or do pick-ups from the brewery have to be made only after an order goes through. Because if not, assuming the rules is you can not buy your beer directly from a truck only online, then considering how many people have access to the internet, you could essentially have a rolling brewery owned beer store.

Toronto's stupid food cart laws would probably consider them a vendor and ban them unless they served hot dogs.

zane9 wrote:

Kel Varnsen wrote:...From reading other posts in other threads I think the only way NAFTA comes in would be if Ontario changed the liquor regulations to set up stores that only sold Ontario made beer. Since they would basically be government approved stores that would be legsliated to keep out products produced in the other NAFTA countries. With private stores in say BC or Alberta, they can sell local products, but there is nothing but the store owners preference that keeps them from selling products made in the US or Mexico.

I'm not entirely sure about the accuracy of Kel's post, but I just maybe too dumb to get it.

Let me recap. Imagine this hypothetical. A private store in Alberta that sells beer. Just craft beer. As a matter of store policy it refuses to sell any beer from any multinational beer company (like Molson, or InBev, etc.) There's a sign in the window that says "we sell only craft beer from Alberta and a selection of Canadian craft beer from coast-to-coast".

My understanding is that the above is illegal under NAFTA, regardless of whether it's a private store (like my Alberta example) or a government-owned store.

All private booze stores, in the provinces that permit them, exist only through government permission (relevant sections of legislation).

I think the NAFTA issue is not that Ontario can't have private stores. I think it's because they grandfathered in the BS and LCBO (and some vintner kiosks). If they allow any private stores then they have to allow foreign ones too (beyond foreign owned BS) and they might have to remove the state 'competition' of the LCBO. In other words it's going to have to be either a fully private or fully public system, no hybrids or the lawyers will go to work.

It might mean that is they allow private ownership that would automatically have to include grocery chains and they would not have any legal leverage to control it.

zane9 wrote: I'm not entirely sure about the accuracy of Kel's post, but I just maybe too dumb to get it.

Let me recap. Imagine this hypothetical. A private store in Alberta that sells beer. Just craft beer. As a matter of store policy it refuses to sell any beer from any multinational beer company (like Molson, or InBev, etc.) There's a sign in the window that says "we sell only craft beer from Alberta and a selection of Canadian craft beer from coast-to-coast".

My understanding is that the above is illegal under NAFTA, regardless of whether it's a private store (like my Alberta example) or a government-owned store.

All private booze stores, in the provinces that permit them, exist only through government permission (relevant sections of legislation).

I am not sure it has to be an all or nothing situation, although everything I know about this subject comes from this site. The way I see it, right now we have a government controlled system where any beer produced in the NAFTA countries has the same access to the Beer Store and the LCBO. Other than a few wine stores those are the only real retail options allowed under Ontario Law. Now say that the government gave the OCB some kind of exemption to the law to allow them to open an OCB only store in downtown Toronto. At this point a brewer from say Vermont can sell in the LCBO and the Beer store if he wanted to, but he is unable to sell in the OCB store, and the Vermont Brewers association is unable to open their own store. From what little I know it seems like there could be an argument for it being unfair. Hell even if you were molson the fact that Mill Street would have access to a store that you don't could be argued as unfair or something.