The Bar Towel

I've been pondering brewing my first funky beer for a bit and was inspired by a sample I had at Dieu du Ciel.
they're doing a funkweizen and i think that's the route i want to go.

i wouldn't mind getting some advice.
i'm debating if i should do two fermentations (the first with a heifweizen yeast and the second with brett) or should dump both the yeast and brett in at the same time.

thoughts?

Brett in secondary.

It really doesn't matter all that much.

Lackey wrote:Brett in secondary.

markaberrant wrote:It really doesn't matter all that much.

alright...two completely opposite opinions!

atomeyes wrote:

Lackey wrote:Brett in secondary.

markaberrant wrote:It really doesn't matter all that much.

alright...two completely opposite opinions!

How about a third? They're both right

The literature says that brett goes barnyard in anaerobic conditions. If you pitch it at the beginning of fermentation, brett will eventually produce its characteristic flavours, but it will likely take longer than pitching it into the secondary once regular yeast has eaten up all the oxygen.

I'm not a brett guru by any stretch of the imagination, but, FWIW, this is what I've seen.

Jason

it depends on what you are going for, bret in secondary is faster and more assertive, bret in primary creates more complexity but takes way longer

for this type of brew id go with bret in secondary

matt7215 wrote:it depends on what you are going for, bret in secondary is faster and more assertive, bret in primary creates more complexity but takes way longer

I have never heard of this. Very interesting. Do you have a source?

As far as I know, with mixed ferementations, the sacc and brett thrive at different ph levels, so it doesn't really matter if you add them at once, or brett in secondary, they will both eventually do their thing on roughly the same schedule. In fact, pitching brett in primary should give it a chance to get climatized and ready to go sooner than if you wait until secondary.

I don't mind waiting for brett to do its thing.

I'm looking to get more sour/cherry than horsey beer, if that helps.

which strain of brett would one suggest?

also, to add to the debate, if one does a 2ndary fermentation, would you do it in a 5 gallon carboy or a fermenting bucket? i've read about placing saran wrap on top of the krauzen and pushing out the oxygen in the foam to prevent and undesireables in the fermentation process.

atomeyes wrote:I don't mind waiting for brett to do its thing.

I'm looking to get more sour/cherry than horsey beer, if that helps.

If you're looking for sour over barnyard, what you probably want is either a sour mash or lactic acid bacteria (pedio and lactobacillus).

Brett can produce lactic acid, but it's never seemed all that much to me no matter how long I leave it sit.

Jason

markaberrant wrote:

matt7215 wrote:it depends on what you are going for, bret in secondary is faster and more assertive, bret in primary creates more complexity but takes way longer

I have never heard of this. Very interesting. Do you have a source?

i do and ill post it once i can dig it up

atomeyes wrote:I don't mind waiting for brett to do its thing.

I'm looking to get more sour/cherry than horsey beer, if that helps.

which strain of brett would one suggest?

bret alone does not get you sour/cherry, you need bacteria for that and then your going in a different direction

if you are trying to get a sour weizen then my suggestion is sour mashing with a portion of your wort and ferment the rest with a hefe strain then blending the 2 parts after the soured portion has reached you desired level of sour. basically the classic homebrewed berliner weisse approach but with a hefe strain rather then a neutral strain. this method does not require bret at all, but adding some certainly wouldnt hurt.

matt7215 wrote:

atomeyes wrote:I don't mind waiting for brett to do its thing.

I'm looking to get more sour/cherry than horsey beer, if that helps.

which strain of brett would one suggest?

bret alone does not get you sour/cherry, you need bacteria for that and then your going in a different direction

if you are trying to get a sour weizen then my suggestion is sour mashing with a portion of your wort and ferment the rest with a hefe strain then blending the 2 parts after the soured portion has reached you desired level of sour. basically the classic homebrewed berliner weisse approach but with a hefe strain rather then a neutral strain. this method does not require bret at all, but adding some certainly wouldnt hurt.

i do want to go the sour mash route one day. right now, i'm not sure if i have the set-up to keep the temps consistent when doing a sour mash.

perhaps "sour" is the wrong word to use.

http://www.whitelabs.com/beer/bacteria.html

was thinking about getting a brett bruxellensis-type flavour as a secondary and hoping that worked with a hefeweizen primary.

then again, i wonder if i'm really just looking for something that would work well with WLP630 Berliner Weisse Blend....

matt7215 wrote:

markaberrant wrote:

matt7215 wrote:it depends on what you are going for, bret in secondary is faster and more assertive, bret in primary creates more complexity but takes way longer

I have never heard of this. Very interesting. Do you have a source?

i do and ill post it once i can dig it up

i cant find any specific source for this but it has been what ive observed in homebrews ive made. its been mentioned in the mad fermentationist blog as well.

when you add bret to secondary your adding it to an environment that it thrives in.

bret it primary tend to be lazy, it starts slow and takes a long time to finish. at least thats what ive observed.

matt7215 wrote:i cant find any specific source for this but it has been what ive observed in homebrews ive made. its been mentioned in the mad fermentationist blog as well.

when you add bret to secondary your adding it to an environment that it thrives in.

bret it primary tend to be lazy, it starts slow and takes a long time to finish. at least thats what ive observed.

Hmm, guess I have never been in much of a rush to notice a difference either way. I have always gone with the 8-9 month rule with brett, that is what the graph in Wild Brews suggests in regards to various yeast and bacteria activity during lambic fermentation.

It is often recommended when brewing lambic or flanders to add all the bacteria and yeast at once, otherwise there may not be enough of a chance for them to do their thing if you wait until secondary, but this likely has more to do with lacatobacillus than brett (this aligns with my experience). This is likely more along the lines of what I was orignally thinking.

to get this back onto the original topic

i think the idea of a funky hefe is great! and this thread has inspired me to brew one.

here is what i think ill brew:

5 lbs Marris Otter
5 lbs German Wheat Malt
3/4 lb. Gambrinus Honey Malt
1 lb. Flaked Barley
1 oz. Hersbrucker 30min
1 week with Wyeast 3068
3 week secondary with bret b