Smuttynose Robust Porter

esprit · Post by **esprit** » Thu Feb 14, 2002 10:08 pm

Thanks for the support! As I said, Bartowel readers probably will buy more of these great brews than the average person so it's somewhat unfair to ask you to buy even more. It's frustrating for an agent like me to have to appeal to beer lovers to buy more of this product but the reality is that most Ontarians could care less and the problem that this creates is that the LCBO looks at the numbers and makes its buying decisions accordingly. They have already determined that Belgian beers are very low down the list in terms of sales and you'll be seeing fewer and fewer Belgian offerings. U.S. micros generally are not performing well either. Our offerings from Ommegang have not gone over well and now the first offering from Smuttynose is doing poorly. If Hop Devil from Victory doesn't do well then you can look forward to a diet of Sam Adams and Anchor on General List and pretty much nothing else in the future. A sad state of affairs but, as the LCBO says, the consumer speaks with their wallets and if they don't want 'em, they won't buy 'em!!!!!

Josh Oakes · Post by **Josh Oakes** » Thu Feb 14, 2002 11:10 pm

There is definitely a lack of consumer understanding of what good beer is all about. Our wonderfully antiquated protectionist policies and oversimplified distribution structure (easy, yes, but a difficult arena in which to deal in niche products) have left a populace with no sense of what beer is capable of. Listing fees, high taxes and a population that is generally more conservative than that south of the border (those wild Buffaloians!) stifle stylistic creativity amongst brewers so that the common image of "microbrew" is Sleeman Cream and Creemore Springs. Not knocking Creemore as a beer, because it is quite nice, but it's not going to earn a lot of double-takes the way Sierra Nevada Pale does down south on a daily basis.

The road is slow, and in terms of selection we may yet suffer another contraction, but sooner or later things will round into form.

Cass · Post by **Cass** » Mon Feb 18, 2002 6:36 pm

Josh brought up an interesting point in another thread that I think is worth mentioning here: why are these beers not "sold" by the LCBO? Does the LCBO really expect that these beers will sell themselves, without hardly any promotion or staff support?

As new beers have been coming out over the last little while, it seems like the ones that sell are beers that have some sort of non-beer related novelty - e.g. the name (Skullsplitter) or packaging (St. Peter's). It is really a sad state of the beer drinking public when the beers that do the best are ones with neat names or bottles, and the truly interesting beers (not to take anything away from Orkney or St. Peter's) don't move.

It is very sad that a beer such as Smutty is judged solely on sales, seemingly not taking into consideration other factors (e.g. the lack of promotion and brand recognition, that it came out simultaneously with a bunch of similar beers, and that Rogue & Samuel Smith are much better known as they are regular releases at the LCBO).

Oh well. Hope HopDevil does better, but it's got a cool name so I'm sure it will

[ This Message was edited by: Cass on 2002-02-18 18:37 ]

esprit · Post by **esprit** » Tue Feb 19, 2002 7:29 pm

The reason the LCBO does not promote these beers is that there is virtually no profit in it for them. They buy small quantities which do not justify spending any more money than they already do. The shelf talkers alone probably eat up their profit. FOOD & DRINK magazine did have a photo with some of the Stouts and Porters including Smutty and Rogue.
At the end of the day it's the old story of LCBO not seriously wanting to be in this business but a system which doesn't allow anyone else to get into the business of retailing specialty beers. Actually, we should be happy that they are at least sensitive enough to consumer reaction to actually carry some of these beers which are more trouble than they are worth to them. We'll have to see what the new Pres. of the LCBO has to offer in this area. Apparently he's got his eye focused on the bottom line which could spell problems for marginal products such as these ultra-premium, small quantity specialties.

Cass · Post by **Cass** » Wed Feb 20, 2002 3:02 pm

As always, the system continues to frustrate. However, I wonder what would happen if the LCBO eliminated all specialty beers completely. Would this spark a significant enough backlash to prove that there is a market for them and they would be brought back? Perhaps the rules might be changed to allow for specialty stores? Would the Beer Store pick up the slack and stock premium beers?

Imagine a metropolitan area of 5MM people (one of the most culturally diverse, as well) with virtually only mass mainstream lagers available. Shudder.

esprit · Post by **esprit** » Fri Feb 22, 2002 10:20 am

I'm sorry to say that, in my opinion, if the LCBO eliminated all specialty beer purchases there would not be enough of a backlash to make any difference. Brewers Retail would have to dramatically change their terms of business in order to allow any specialty beers in as their current cost structure is such that I know we could not affort to have any of our products sold in Beer Stores. Again, we don't have a critical mass of people who really care about these products in Ontario. When the LCBO offers them, sure there are many people who try the products. But if all of a sudden they were not available, you'd barely hear a peep.

Cyrill Slocombe · Post by **Cyrill Slocombe** » Fri Feb 22, 2002 6:28 pm

I don't know if this goes here, but it goes somewhere so here is where it is going.

Did you hear what Diamond Jim Flaherty said? Well, he said, today no less, that within 12 months of being premier he is going to sell off LCBO (and Ontario Place and TVO and bunch of other useless crud). KALOO-KALAY! Finally our saviour has arrived. This is what he need in this country, a politician with enough action downstairs to stand up to the elites and get the government out of where it don't belong. This is the first step in the revolution that will see beer in the corner store! Seriously, you all talk a good game, but now the chips are down. Your man has emerged and putting the challenge to you - what are prepared to do to end to the fascist beer/alcohol regime? If you're worth your salt, you'll stand up, put your pants on and walk down to your local Jim Flaherty office and say "I want to help Jim deliver freedom to our socialist province."

Now, I'm no dumby. I know some of you are all like "But I don't like his other policies" Well, don't worry about that because he won't be able to deliver on any of his other crazy promises - but this one is doable.

Still not being a dumby, I also know that some of you are thinking "but look at Alberta - they deregulated and now, although you can get beer in the public library, the selection has gone way done and I'm fancy city boy and I like drinking my fancy pants beer from Upper Slobobia." Well listen here, pony boy. First of all, you got a problem with getting beer absolutely everywhere at absolutely any time at all? I though not. And B), this does not have to happen. It may or may not have happened in Alberta (which I think it didn't - more liberal propaganda) but if you, as a consumer, exercise your god-given right to moan and bitch and write and e-mails and threatening unsigned letters, you will win. We will get your fancy beers boys! In fact, we will get beers that you can't even dream of right now. Beers from Uzbekistan and the Congo and Micronesia - even the stuff that those scientists brew in Antartica.

Alright - I know invite you to respond because discussion is the key to democracy. But if you don't get behind Jim, I never, ever want to hear any of you say "but I can't get my nice fancy light lager from the Isle of Choda" ever again because you will have lost your right to complain.

Tootles.

Cyrill

PRMason · Post by **PRMason** » Fri Feb 22, 2002 9:27 pm

Hooray for Cyril but before we go whole hog and lose our minds in the rush to beer nirvana, lets ask the important question... Will the LCBO just get out of retail or will they still be responsible for warehousing and distribution of beverage alcohol in Ontario. If they propose to just be a governing body like the AGCO(LLBO) then fine. If they still are going to control the pricing and distribution then it is an entirely different matter. The LCBO is the single largest purchaser of beverage alcohol in the world and they make the Gov't a windfall profit each and every year. The privatisation hot button is pressed every decade or so with no real movement so far. This won't happen overnight. What about the Beer Store? The Ontario micros that want to use the Beer Store to sell its bottled product (or kegs for that matter) have to entrust their stuff to a company wholly owned by their major competitors, Molson, Labatt(Interbrew-Oland), and to a lesser extent, Sleeman.What does Diamond Jim propose about that?

Franklin Macintosh · Post by **Franklin Macintosh** » Sat Feb 23, 2002 12:53 am

Damn, Cyrill, my KLBRWB nearly came out my nose when I read that bit about Diamond Jim's "action downstairs." Tee hee.
I also wanted to say that RBMason raises some very good counterpoints, but I'm not going to belabour the issue since I know how you can get on this subject.
At least you're not still talking about how you can drink marijuana anymore.

Frank.

joey_capps · Post by **joey_capps** » Sat Feb 23, 2002 11:01 am

Cyrill:

I find your deification of Jim Flaherty amusing if not somewhat scary. "Deliver freedom to our socialist province"?!?!?!?!? After 7 years of Mike Harris! Come on! I hope your tongue is firmly planted in cheek.

Seriously, though, this type of rhetoric and this type of politics is dangerous. One issue does not a candidate make. As for the doability of his other promises, does it matter to these idealogues whether there policies make sense or not? (Yes my bias is showing) My fear is that Flaherty will govern for 2-3 years before testing his policies with a general election. Just think of the damage he could do. God forbid one of us be thought homeless one night while returning from the pub.

Look at the mess the Tories have made of health care and education. Oh, and there is this little place called Walkerton. The Mike Harris Tories have always practiced a jump-in-then-learn-how-to-swim type politics. Unfortunately, people have died because of their shortsightedness. That isn't funny or tongue in cheek. And, we are headed into another deficit situation. Let's also not forget that Flaherty has been restrained by the more "moderate" factions of the revolution.

What does does the privatization of the LCBO mean? Does it mean a monopoly for one private company? Look at what's happened on the 407. Have the tolls gone down? And, just wait until May and the deregulation of hydro. Save you pennies now, we will be paying more for electricity, that is, if it's still working. Here's my prediction if Flaherty sells off the LCBO--Higher prices and less selection.

Now, Cyrill, I know you're thinking I'm some pinko-communist-socialist-whinning-idiot. That okay. I understand. But I'm not giving up my right to complain. Please don't condescend. Even as a social-democrate, I do believe that the regulations on liquor sales should be loosened. In fact, I believe beer & wine sales should be privatized, or at least opened to competition. (I'm not so sure about spirits and hard-liquor, but that's another discussion) There are alternatives to Flaherty: organize; join bodies like CAMRA; write letters; talk to people; talk to politicians; simply get involved!

Frankly, though, this issue, in the overall scheme of things, is not that important. It only really becomes important when you have a certain luxury in your life. I'm fortunate. I am in the position to complain about the lack of availablity of good beer in Ontario. My fridge is full with food (and drink), my job is good, and when I'm really fed up I can travel to Buffalo to stock up. There are people out there who are in need. If you don't know where your next meal is coming from, you're probably not worried about the availability of that "nice fancy light lager from the Isle of Choda."

Cheers, Joe.

PS The irony in all this is that I really hope Flaherty wins the leadership. He will be the easiest candidate to defeat in the next election. He just won't be able to hide his ignorance.

[ This Message was edited by: jcappadocia on 2002-02-23 11:04 ]

Simon de la Framboise · Mon Feb 25, 2002 12:02 am

Wow, BAr Towel bakc on track, thanks for the 4-1-1 on that, frank. now, lets get dowwn to business. joe: dont get your eyes tied in too much of a knotte over the rantings of olde cyrill. i know cyrill back at our college days, and he's somewhat of a phanatical zee-lot when it comes to politics. you no, he's been a big harrisite since well before commons sense revolution - i cant be sure, but i think the "fairness is a two-way street act" was actually prompted by a letter campaign started by cyrill in a bloorcourt village bar. it doesnt whurt that harris tax policies (which promsie to be strengthened by flaherty) have helped cyrill to tuck millions away off-shore. but enough of this shit. lets talk about what i think. and what i think is that the government has GOT to get out of the liquor business. mostly this is because of the cupuction that has arisen as a result of the clefmun goodslam domination of the little brewing person. as we all know, the beer storef is run by the main beer companies. and if you try to get your beer put on their shelves, they call the police on you. i, for instance, made a wonderful oatmeal batch of brew in my car hole, bottled, printed up a FULL COULOUR label and took it over to the duff mall beer store to sell it. and they gave me this whole rigamaroll about safety precautions, and red tape, as if they didnt think i would have cleande the bottles before i made them. that, in my mind was total b.s., because if they dont buy my beer, and i am not able to sell it to them because i dont have the proper "paperworle", you would think that i could at least sell it myself in a market, or in front of the beer store, or at least at my local pub. but, and this i didnt know, apparently its all covered everywhere by government bureaucracy. i cant do anything with my beer without the governemnt getting all involved in my affairs. its as though they DONt LIKE the small businessman, just trying to make an honest buck. man, i burns me up. so before you start dismissing the idea that we actually live in a nation state, you better think that we are not going to win this for the better with less governement in it. you sound young and nave jon, sometimes you'll wake up to the newsfront.

simon.

Publican · Post by **Publican** » Mon Feb 25, 2002 7:12 am

Sinon, are you sure you went to college, your spelling is at a Grade 2 level!!!

Franklin Macintosh · Post by **Franklin Macintosh** » Mon Feb 25, 2002 7:02 pm

You're welcome, Simon. It sure has changed here since the old days, huh? Not only are there lots of folks on the forums who really seem to know their beer, but Cyrill's even managing to find someone who agrees with him (well, partially, anyway).
Speaking of agreeing, I'm gonna have to back up what Publican had to say regarding your spelling, although I'm going to blame it on a few too many brews during the hockey game, rather than call you stupid. I'm also going to make sure I catch any spelling or grammatical errors I've made whilst writing this post so I don't come off looking like a hypocrite. That's just the way I am.

Frank.

Cyrill Slocombe · Post by **Cyrill Slocombe** » Thu Feb 28, 2002 11:05 pm

You see, this is what I'm talking about when I'm talking about it. You people have no dedication to beer and freedom. "What about Walkerton? What about Health Care? My tummy hurts? What time is it? Who am I?" Come ON people. Now, I could spend my time by pointing out that Harris didn't kill nobody in Walkerton - two dumbass brothers did. These were guys hired by Bill Frickin Davis! This could've just've easily have happened when Bob "oh I love trees, oh wait, what's this? The lumber industry is offering my millions to be their bitch? I hate trees. Down with trees!" Rae ran the People's Republic of Ontario. And if it had've, then everyone would be saying "it's the federal Liberal's fault - curse them!" And you know what - they would've been right! The Liberal's balanced the budget the way my dad saved the family farm - he made us beg on the street for food.

But I'm not going to do that. I'm just going to point out that, it is a proven scientific fact that you cannot suck and blow at the same time (although, lord knows that the little misses tries . . . I kid of course, no woman would ever touch me). You have a beautiful site here dedicated to the airing of the grievances of the oppressed beer drinkers of the land. It is run by one of the most kind and decent men I have ever met. And use it you do - oh the complaining I've read on this site. But then, the opportunity for action comes . . . the chance to liberate yourselves and you all run for the bathroom. Well, you'll get your Dalton McGuinty and then you'll get your nice clean water - unfortunately it'll be in a brown bottle with "Molsons" stamped on the front. And then you'll have to shut your traps. But not me, I'll be able to complain all I want because I will have done something.

Chizzle

(Edited to change "choda-loving" to "dumbass" since this is a family site)

[ This Message was edited by: Cyrill Slocombe on 2002-02-28 23:07 ]

Josh Oakes · Post by **Josh Oakes** » Fri Mar 01, 2002 12:24 am

So much for defending my All-Toronto Ranting Championship. Oh well, at least my All-Toronto Beerhunting Championship will never be challenged.