Stone beers in Ontario

Cass · Post by **Cass** » Tue Feb 24, 2015 11:47 am

My how times have changed.

http://www.bartowel.com/board/viewtopic.php?t=5278

rejtable · Post by **rejtable** » Tue Feb 24, 2015 2:54 pm

And also, "Ontario" isn't just downtown Toronto. Is there a better IPA on tap any given night of the week in Ottawa? Sure the odd Great Lakes IPA makes it to Brothers or to Arrow and Loon, but assuming BierMrkt can keep these on tap regularly, most nights of the week in the run of a year these will be as highly regarded beers as we'll find, no?

How many better beers overall are available any given night in any of the areas besides inner Toronto that are better than these two beer?

El Pinguino · Post by **El Pinguino** » Tue Feb 24, 2015 6:17 pm

saints_gambit wrote:
El Pinguino wrote:
saints_gambit wrote:I hate to say it guys, but it's just two more massively hop forward beers. Two months from now, it's going to be super hard to move an 11 dollar pint of Stone.
What would be a comparable local beer available around here to Arrogant Bastard?

The IPA I'm not excited about, it's nto a favourite and we have plenty of options...but I really love the bastard beers and can't think of a nice local alternative.
There aren't any anymore. We literally moved past being influenced by Arrogant Bastard at some point about six years ago.

Hmm, I've been kicking around here on Bartowel for more than 10 years and don't ever recall any comments about past Ontario beers being influenced by / similar to Arrogant Bastard.

It really is a beer I enjoy, perhaps because it has some Belgian dark strong ale characteristics...sweet caramel....type influence to it and isn't purely hops. Even if it isn't for some people anymore, I would like to see more similar beers around here

Belgian · Post by **Belgian** » Wed Feb 25, 2015 12:06 am

Kel Varnsen wrote:I am no expert on international trade, but my understanding is that producing beer in Berlin, means you could distribute to all of the EU relatively easily. Compare that to Canada and the fact that if you have a brewery in Ontario, there is a crazy amount of regulatory hoops you have to jump through just to get your beer in(to) another province.

Sure, though I think CC Red Racer and some Unibroue and DDC are among the best values we have of all beers in Ontario. This despite our comparatively awkward land mass / population distribution VS Germany & the EU countries, no? But - whatever works for Stone.

saints_gambit wrote:I hate to say it guys, but it's just two more massively hop forward beers. Two months from now, it's going to be super hard to move an 11 dollar pint of Stone.

I don't consider they are massively hop forward, least not in extreme and I don't opine they are 'just two more' as Stone beers to me have a supreme structure, consistency and balance which makes them kind of unique for their level of craft.
The ten-dollar-plus pint (or pint-priced goblet) is already here, it's proud & it's stupid so if beer's through the roof anyway might as well have Stone around as well! Time will tell sir.

saints_gambit · Post by **saints_gambit** » Wed Feb 25, 2015 1:56 am

You know what? Let's make it a fact finding mission. I want you to keep mental track for the next three months of the number of pints of either Stone IPA or Stone Arrogant Bastard you buy.

I'm legitimately curious. I'm not sure that it's going to prove a specific point. I will say this though: Ontario is a very tough room.

Cass · Post by **Cass** » Wed Feb 25, 2015 9:13 am

saints_gambit wrote:You know what? Let's make it a fact finding mission. I want you to keep mental track for the next three months of the number of pints of either Stone IPA or Stone Arrogant Bastard you buy.

I'm legitimately curious. I'm not sure that it's going to prove a specific point. I will say this though: Ontario is a very tough room.

If you lived in San Diego, how many pints of Stone IPA or Arrogant Bastard would you buy in three months? Probably not that many. Doesn't mean it shouldn't be there and available.

Craig · Post by **Craig** » Wed Feb 25, 2015 9:27 am

I think everyone can get on board with Stone being available. The discrepancy is whether you think it's going to be a dramatic change to the marketplace.

I'm on the side that they're great hoppy beers, but I'm probably not going to buy a whole lot of them. The only reason I would is if they get a TBS listing and that's only because there's a TBS more convenient to my house than a LCBO.

cratez · Post by **cratez** » Wed Feb 25, 2015 10:42 am

saints_gambit wrote: I want you to keep mental track for the next three months of the number of pints of either Stone IPA or Stone Arrogant Bastard you buy.

Well I've already had four pints (two of each) and they've only been available for a couple of weeks. Will no doubt have many more while continuing to drink mostly Ontario craft beer at home and at the bar. More great beer in Ontario - whether it's locally brewed or from abroad - can only be a good thing for our beer scene.

Cass wrote: Doesn't mean it shouldn't be there and available.

Exactly.

rejtable · Post by **rejtable** » Wed Feb 25, 2015 2:17 pm

Cass wrote:If you lived in San Diego, how many pints of Stone IPA or Arrogant Bastard would you buy in three months? Probably not that many. Doesn't mean it shouldn't be there and available.

The people on this forum are representative of a very small piece of the ON public. We are outliers.

Stone is almost certainly a wildly successful company and I bet it's not just because of the special releases they do. Their IPA has to be a huge chunk of their business, including right in their home town. I was there for a combined 2 weeks, and while surely my consumption patterns while there are not the same as locals, I had it a small handful of times. Often in places that weren't super beer focused. But they had it on tap at their brewery, at all the Stone Stores I visited, etc. It's in every grocery store around town, beer focused included. Somebody must be drinking it. A lot.

Derek · Post by **Derek** » Wed Feb 25, 2015 4:56 pm

For Toronto, it is a few years too late. They might've grabbed more market share if it arrived right after the Volo tap takeover, but times are definitely changing.

Outside Toronto, I still think they have a real chance. If chains pick it up and deliver it to the middle of nowhere, people will drink it. I'm thinking like Boston Pizza, that's in a small town with no other macro alternatives.

rejtable · Post by **rejtable** » Wed Feb 25, 2015 9:01 pm

I find it very hard to believe that Toronto/ontario are somehow too advanced or too good for stone ipa or bastard. It is on tap and in stores all over the us including lots of markets with craft beer developped as well or far better than Toronto. Pricing surely could be an issue. But pricing aside there is no way Toronto is too good for those two beers.

saints_gambit · Post by **saints_gambit** » Wed Feb 25, 2015 11:48 pm

rejtable wrote:I find it very hard to believe that Toronto/ontario are somehow too advanced or too good for stone ipa or bastard. It is on tap and in stores all over the us including lots of markets with craft beer developped as well or far better than Toronto. Pricing surely could be an issue. But pricing aside there is no way Toronto is too good for those two beers.

It's not a question of "too good." I'm saying we're very fickle and the reception would probably be greater if it had gotten here earlier.

midlife crisis · Post by **midlife crisis** » Thu Feb 26, 2015 9:27 am

saints_gambit wrote:
rejtable wrote:I find it very hard to believe that Toronto/ontario are somehow too advanced or too good for stone ipa or bastard. It is on tap and in stores all over the us including lots of markets with craft beer developped as well or far better than Toronto. Pricing surely could be an issue. But pricing aside there is no way Toronto is too good for those two beers.
It's not a question of "too good." I'm saying we're very fickle and the reception would probably be greater if it had gotten here earlier.

Agreed. I don't think the Stone beers, while undeniably solid, are so much better than the best that Ontario has to offer in 2015 that they are going to cause a significant shift in buying behaviour or have that much impact on the market. At least, as others have said, not in central Toronto, Ottawa, London, Hamilton, Kingston or Guelph, say. Now (as Derek said) if I'm at Boston Pizza in North Bay and Stone is on the menu, I would be thrilled! Hell, I'd be thrilled to see it at the Boston Pizza here at Yonge & Sheppard. But the same would be true of GLB Thrust or Amsterdam Cruiser on NB Headstock, etc.

rejtable · Post by **rejtable** » Thu Feb 26, 2015 12:32 pm

I'm not clear on what this discussion is even about at this point.

If the measure of success for Stone IPA and AB are that they are going to cause a "significant shift in buying behaviour" what would that even mean?

I was reacting more to the idea that these beers won't find success (however defined) long term here. If the measure of that success has to be some significant change to way I buy beer, of course they'll fail.

But if the measure is that these beers will stay on taps and shelves long term, and maybe encourage other similar entrants to our market, I think there's a real good chance that that happens.

I find it hard to believe Toronto is a dramatically more difficult nut to crack than any of the dozens (hundreds?) of large urban markets Stone is already in, each with their own unique issues.

There may certainly be externalities (LCBO distribution, pricing) etc that cause them to fail here, and maybe the balance of probability right now is that these issues will be too much for them to stick around long term. But I can't see it being because we passed that phase 6 years ago, or because we have so much better beer available that we won't have time for them.

midlife crisis · Post by **midlife crisis** » Thu Feb 26, 2015 12:42 pm

Fair comment. I'm certainly not predicting that Stone will leave this market in failure in six months time, or anything like that. I guess I was reacting to much earlier comments that seemed to suggest (in my interpretation at least) that the arrival of Stone and SN was going to be a significant game-changer for the Ontario beer marketplace that would force some local craft breweries out of business, and force others to re-assess or change their core lineups.