why I don't like the bier markt

Rubaiyat · Post by **Rubaiyat** » Fri Sep 19, 2003 1:36 pm

Just a quick note from an agent's perspective ... the EBM is a wonderful outlet for our (lesser known - actually lesser MARKETED really - more peculiar, etc. beers) BUT ... trust me ... they wouldn't have a lot of what they have unless we didn't push ... and push ... and follow up ... and follow up ... and push ... and push ... it is, ultimately, still way more easier for them to just deal with the big players, etc. so ... don't be totally fooled by their "mandate" to bring a huge selection of beers to the toronto bar scene.

Having said that, they do end up carrying a lot of great beers, it is a big space, great equipment, pretty good food, and all the rest and I, too, recommend it and patronize it myself from time to time quite happily.

Finally, someone suggested above that THEY play a role in the LCBO's making available a wide range of beers, etc. etc. Let me say, again from an agent's perspective, nothing they do or don't do plays much of a role at all in what the LCBO carries. In our particular case, for the moment at least, they have about 10 of our beers NONE of which are at the LCBO right NOW -- and them carrying them has no bearing on the LCBO's purchasing plans really ... anyhow it's a fluid situation.

Bit of a rant but just wanted to make sure we keep things in perspective here.

Cheers,

Paul

lucysaunders · Post by **lucysaunders** » Mon Sep 29, 2003 10:30 pm

Please send me any feedback you have about menu changes at the Bier Markt, for those of you who have dined there recently. I visited the EBM over a year ago, and want to get updated info. Thanks! Please send your note to Lucy@beercook.com

dhurtubise · Post by **dhurtubise** » Sun Oct 05, 2003 12:39 pm

Finally, someone suggested above that THEY play a role in the LCBO's making available a wide range of beers, etc. etc. Let me say, again from an agent's perspective, nothing they do or don't do plays much of a role at all in what the LCBO carries. In our particular case, for the moment at least, they have about 10 of our beers NONE of which are at the LCBO right NOW -- and them carrying them has no bearing on the LCBO's purchasing plans really ... anyhow it's a fluid situation.

My stand was and still is that by serving and selling specialty beers to a public that would normally be buying macros, they are in some capacity an institution, educating more palates than any other individual organization; those palates would otherwise remain dormant, unskilled and tolerant of heavily advertised adjunct packed, bland tasteless light American lagers and ales.

Through the education process, demand for exported and higher quality products is increased because people simply know better. When they go to the liquor store and beer store they are much more likely to request specific specialty products because they know them, from the biermrkt. The LCBO, being a business, should bend at least a little to their clientele’s desires/request and expands their product offering. This is how I have come to the rational that the biermarkt plays a role in increasing the beer selection at the LCBO.

They increase the knowledge, ultimately increase demand for specialty products, which should eventually result in better and more varied choices at the retail end.

After all, how could you expect people to demand higher quality products if they simply do not know any better.

esprit · Post by **esprit** » Sun Oct 05, 2003 1:08 pm

Great theory but that's not the way it works...we're selling more Belgian beer through the Consignment than we ever have and demand is growing yet the LCBO today offers far fewer Belgian beers than they did 3 or 4 years ago when VINTAGES was doing the specialties. The fact is that demand at retail is not growing in leaps and bounds unless you want to call people switching from Labatt's to Stella progress...I don't. At the risk of repeating myself, when it takes 3 or 4 months to sell a couple of hundred cases of Rogue or Victory or Smuttynose product through the LCBO, who's kidding who? In the eyes of the LCBO there is virtually no demand for these kinds of beers and they're right. The Esplanade can go on education people for the next 10 years but the impact will be minimal....Molbatts with their millions will continue to overshadow the minimal impact of places like the Esplanade and this country will be dominated by mediocre beers for many, many years to come.

Rubaiyat · Post by **Rubaiyat** » Tue Oct 07, 2003 2:39 pm

Exactly ...

dhurtubise · Post by **dhurtubise** » Fri Oct 10, 2003 11:28 am

Your experience saddens me. I do sorely miss the Vintages section of the LCBO when beer was part of it. I think we must still be reminded of the appaling beer selection at the LCBO and Beer Store 10 years ago. We have made some baby steps....

By the way, I saw that Smokeless is getting Chapeau Kriek and Fraise. Are either of you selling cases. If so I want to grab a few cases. Please give me your price... Also, is there any Rochefort 10 still kicking around?

Daniel

esprit · Post by **esprit** » Sat Oct 11, 2003 10:57 am

We have a few cases of Rochefort 10 remaining....esprit@primus.ca

old faithful · Post by **old faithful** » Sat Oct 11, 2003 3:24 pm

The comments about the difficulty of marketing interesting beers are saddening. While I don't disagree as such, I think there are a number of specific reasons why this is so:

1) there seems no rhyme or reason to the import policy of the LCBO. Why is Rainier Dry sold (seemingly for years and years) but Rainier Ale, which would be a decent compromise between a very good micro ale (e.g. such as Smuttynose makes) and say a Rickard's ale, was never available here?

2) Another example: a fruited beer from Newfoundland has been available. Good and well, but would the average person seeking to try something different start with that? If he or she is interested in fruit beers, likely they would go for a Belgian one, not one from England or Newfoundland. How are decisions made as to what will be offered and from where?

3) I suggest the decent lagers of Europe need better coverage at the LCBO, e.g. 1664 of Kronenbourg is back (in nice green bottles this time) after a long absence. Where are the Belgian lagers that will compete with Stella Artois (say Cristal, Jupiler)? We see the same old German, Dutch and Danish lagers, mostly in cans, year in and out. Can we not see some of the good lagers from Bavaria (e.g. Ayinger) in bottles? Wheat beer is not the whole story in Germany and Trappist/Abbey are not the whole story in Belgium..

4) Beers are brought in of many different styles and lands and put on the shelf next to each other with little or no explanation of what they are and what to expect. In wine, people know from long acculturation what to look for in the "California" section, say. Whereas, beer is still new to many people. But even for those who know little about wine at least there is a California section, or Ontario, etc.! Why not create on the shelves an ale section, light lager, dark lager, porter/stout, etc.? Do it by style, which seems the only logical way at present. It couldn't get too "splittish" or people would get more confused but give them some basic shelf education and a system to decide what to try. Now, it is done mostly hit or miss and people are afraid I think to try something they may not like, find too strong or assertive, don't understand, etc.

5) It has to be recognised domestic micro beers compete strongly with imports. This I feel has resulted in the lower, rather desultory, inconsistent choice we now have of imports at LCBO (although in total there are still many such imports, perhaps a couple hundred or so it seems; that isn't terrible but it could be a lot better). So the imports have to take a different tack to their marketing.

Everything is incremental. Stella Artois (which is good when in very fresh condition) is a big leap forward for someone considering moving away from a Canadian or a Blue to try something different. The Import Beer Company owned by Interbrew has stimulated interest in imported beers through making Stella and especially Hoegaarden widely available. And Leffe Blonde, which is very good when served properly. There are niches for import beers that are more characterful. Smokeless Joe's does a fine job to sell them, ditto EBM, Allens, etc. The market is there to develop and could grow but the current obtacles must be tackled on a number of fronts, of which a few are listed above to stimulate discussion.

A final thought. Education is, again, the key. There is little or none done via the shelves themselves. Some is done through the excellent beer articles in the LCBO's magazines, but how many people pick those up to read? (More should, I agree). We need the beer specialist writers to be giving more tastings and seminars in the good beer outlets. Restaurateurs and bar owners take note, please. Steve Beaumont, who lives right here in our fair city, does a great job to educate and inform people. And when was the last time Michael Jackson was in town to appear at a local hostelry? It seems like ages ago, yet he appears regularly in the major U.S. cities. The beer festivals that were held here this summer helped, but we need more, more, more..

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: old faithful on 2003-10-12 10:09 ]</font>

borderline_alcoholic · Tue Oct 14, 2003 6:01 pm

While there are many ways in which the LCBO does warrant criticism, I do not believe that it is their job to educate the masses as to the merits of beer or anything else. They are just a retailer (if a monopolistic one) and as such their role should be to meet the demands of their customers and exploit emerging markets etc etc. (I don't think that they even do these things especially well BTW.)

Actually, I would find it quite patronising to wander into an LCBO and have someone trying to teach me things. It might, however, be nice if their staff were in any way knowledgeable about the products that they actually do sell in case customers did happen to have any specific questions, but I guess that that is just too much to hope for.

The only way that people are ever going to be educated about beer, wine, malt whiskies or anything else is if they want to be and go and make the effort themselves. I do not think that this is unreasonable.

To address some of your other points:

I do agree with you about there being no rhyme or reason to LCBO policies.

With regard to the NB fruit beer, I think that it is very much a good thing that any and all Canadian microbrewed beers should be available here as standard. I think that it is in the interests of everyone on these boards that we see Canada develop a decent brewing tradition and I for one am tired of the bizarre lack of free trade internal to Canada. It is ridiculous that beers brewed in Quebec should not be readily available in Ontario and vice versa and the same is true across all other provinces.

I would very much like to see a wider selection of Belgian ales here too BTW, but I do not think that we should be arguing in terms of doing so at the expense of microbreweries. Imports and micros, though in some competition with each other, fulfill different functions within the market and should be treated separately, especially by us - the last thing we need is the LCBO deciding to stop supporting micros due to consumer feedback. And with their lack of rhyme and reason, I somehow suspect that we would not see a corresponding rise in the numbers of imports on the shelves...

And with regard to your point about European lagers, I happen to think that lagers are extremely overexposed across Canada compared to all other styles of beer, so I feel that there are other areas which are more worthy of championing at this point.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: borderline_alcoholic on 2003-10-14 18:03 ]</font>