Short Pints

DukeofYork = Richard · Wed Nov 05, 2003 11:39 pm

http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/W-6/106002.html#rid-106117

The Weights and Measures Act gives a pint as (if you work it out) the Imperial standard pint, i.e. 20 ounces or 568 ml. Does this mean anything? If I see "pints" advertised and received a 16 ouncer, can I throw the book at them?

Josh Oakes · Post by **Josh Oakes** » Thu Nov 06, 2003 10:27 am

I often ask for a pint, get something short, and then look at the menu and realize they call it a "mug" or something else. Truthfully, though, if I ask for a pint I should either get one or be informed that they are not available.

Also, short measures are common in this town - you pay for 16oz and get 14 or 15, with a bunch of foam. Unlined glasses and indifferent service are the bane of bars everywhere - good ones, too.

Jon Walker · Post by **Jon Walker** » Thu Nov 06, 2003 11:19 am

I personally wish the government would pass some sort of law to govern this. Rather than adopting a system like England's where the glassware had to have official measures on each glass, which would be impractical let alone expensive for each bar to replace all their glasses, I'd like to at least some sort of regulation. It would make sense to me that only a full pint could be called a pint on both the menu and any boards/displays in the establishment. Further if a bar was going to serve in smaller (or larger) capacity glassware they should have to state on their menus and on signs at the bar what the actual capacity of their glasses is in both ounces and Mils. It's a small issue in some people's minds but for me it's a case of wanting to know exactly what I'm paying for. Imagine if gas stations could arbitrarily decide what measure constituted a "litre" of gas?

Andicus · Post by **Andicus** » Thu Nov 06, 2003 12:42 pm

One would think that there would be a legal obligation to provide the size and alcohol content for any alcohol served so DUI could be avoided as well. The "general" idea of a beer (or other drink) an hour is obviously not the case for many of our preferred beverages, and/or their serving sizes.

Andrew

borderline_alcoholic · Thu Nov 06, 2003 5:18 pm

I originally posted this in the Mill Street thread where this topic of conversation started, but I guess it is now more appropriate here.

On 2003-11-05 23:07, borderline_alcoholic wrote:
I think that verbally asking for a pint is a grey area. They can probably just about justify that they assume that you mean 'I want a standard glass of beer', whatever size a "standard glass" may be in their establishment.

I would imagine that if they actually advertised 'pints of beer' in writing on their menus then they would be on very dubious ground, but I don't think that they do.

I think that customers probably are just about within their rights to take one look at the 'pint' they've ordered and then to walk out in disgust, but I think that such an action would be just a bit on the overly extreme side.

I am more interested in how the US pint came about in the first place. Surely someone at some point would have had to redefine it as smaller. Imagine trying that if you were a publican in the UK. You'd be lynched! You can't just randomly change the amount that a pint contains...

I can't believe that someone offering you 4/5 of what you normally would expect would be acceptable anywhere - maybe everyone in the US forgot how big a standard pint of beer was during prohibition. I am just clutching at straws now, as it is almost beyond my comprehension how this came about. If anyone knows, please enlighten me...

I am awaiting the new US foot (now only 9 inches). Then maybe the Republicans won't feel quite so inadequate that they feel the need to invade everybody.

It's a funny old world at times.

borderline_alcoholic · Thu Nov 06, 2003 5:22 pm

On 2003-11-06 12:42, Andicus wrote:
The "general" idea of a beer (or other drink) an hour is obviously not the case for many of our preferred beverages, and/or their serving sizes.

Andrew

You speak for yourself. I know that I enjoy my hourly 3-pint pitcher of Absinth and am perfectly fine at the wheel of an automobile...

Publican · Post by **Publican** » Thu Nov 06, 2003 7:19 pm

I believe the best thing to do when you feel you've recieved a short measure is ask for a top up. I've been given less than a pint many times and have never been rebuffed when I a ask for a few more ounces. The worst place to be given less than a pint has to be the United States as when your beer is a couple of ounces short it's not much bigger than a standard bottle of beer and your paying $5-6 US for it!

borderline_alcoholic · Thu Nov 06, 2003 7:53 pm

Aye, I have no problem doing that, but of course it is a bit harder if the actual glass is too small...

Maybe we should bring our own pint glasses with us and ask them to fill that. It's the only way to be sure.

[ This Message was edited by: borderline_alcoholic on 2003-11-06 19:55 ]

Uncle Bobby · Post by **Uncle Bobby** » Mon Nov 10, 2003 2:43 pm

I personally wish the government would pass some sort of law to govern this. Rather than adopting a system like England's where the glassware had to have official measures on each glass

Actually my understanding is that Ontario used to have standardized glasses and other measures for licquor. The little 8oz. glasses (still in use at the Brunnie) were the standard. And yes, they used to have a wash line on the side, and even included the crown imprint like English pint and half-pint glasses. Truth be told, don't we still have standardized and strict enforcement of measurements for licquor. (C'mon, licensess, help me out.)

I don't know when that standard changed, but it's probably more recently than you think. (I have placed a call to my Dad, an authority on all things related to the hotel tap room. Let's see what he says.)

U.S. gallons and U.S. pints have always been about 80% of Imperial measures. Does anyone remember the little stickers on the sides of gas pumps telling U.S. customers that when we pumped them 4 gallons of gas, it was equivalent to 5 U.S. gallons? Their pint glasses are largely still of the 16oz. variety, too.

What peaves me is going to cheesy bars in Toronto, and virtually every bar in Vancouver, and getting the 16oz. "cheater" pint. I have sent back cheater pints in Vancouver.

From http://www.miketodd.net/encyc/measures1.htm

Measuring volumes
At one time, the British gallon differed depending on what you were measuring, and where you were measuring it. But, by the 19th century, two definitions had survived: the Queen Anne (or Wine) gallon, which was 231 cubic inches, and the Winchester (or Ale) gallon, of 282 cu in.

In 1824, the British abandoned both the Ale and the Wine gallons in favour of the Imperial gallon, based on the volume of 10 pounds of water (which works out at 277.41945 cu in). America, by this time, had already standardised on the Wine Gallon of 231 cubic inches (strictly speaking, this was defined as the volume of a cylinder 6 inches long and 7 inches in diameter, or 230.9070 cubic inches).

The result is that the US gallon is 83.267% of the British gallon. In more usable figures, the British gallon is about a fifth greater than the US gallon, and the US gallon is about 5/6 of the British gallon (or a little under 7 British pints)

And, yes, this has a knock-on to other liquid measures - like Britain, the US has 4 quarts, 8 pints or 32 gills in a gallon, so these measures are also smaller than in the UK.

As if this didn't impose enough confusion, the Americans have 16 fluid ounces to their pint, whereas the British have 20 fluid ounces to the pint. In the British system, a gallon of water weighs 10lbs, or 160 ounces, and similarly there are 160 fluid ounces in a gallon, or 20 fluid ounces in a pint - from this, it follows that a fluid ounce of water does indeed weigh an ounce.

Finally, if we changed over to metric, it would not be that different. A pint is .57 litres. Standardization would simply involve knocking the 7ml (a sacrifice I would be willing to make in the interests of standardization), and presto-hey, Ontarians get a reliable measure of pleasure. Or better yet, standardize the .57l/20oz.pint glass.

-Uncle Bobby

PRMason · Post by **PRMason** » Mon Nov 10, 2003 5:17 pm

Perhaps it would be simpler if all licencees simply stated price and quantity. For example, a menu would say Scotch Irish Black Irish Porter (shameless plug!) - 10 0z - $3.50, 20 oz.- $5.50. You would then know what you will be getting and if you are not delivered what was adverised in the menu, you have real grounds for argument.
It would be even nicer if they included all taxes in their posted price as well, but that's another topic.

borderline_alcoholic · Mon Nov 10, 2003 5:34 pm

On 2003-11-10 17:17, PRMason wrote:
It would be even nicer if they included all taxes in their posted price as well, but that's another topic.

I agree entirely. As far as I'm aware North America is the only place in the world which does not list the price you actually pay on the menu. There is no advantage to it - it is not as though they are fooling anybody. It is just a complete disgrace.

JerCraigs · Post by **JerCraigs** » Mon Nov 10, 2003 7:26 pm

This seems a tad overblown. What it really comes down to is if you care that much, ask your server what you will be getting.

the.brewer · Post by **the.brewer** » Mon Nov 10, 2003 11:10 pm

Some of you may not be aware that it is the law in Ontario that a licencee must show the price and serving size of all alcoholic drinks offered, and furthermore, a brewpub must clearly display the alcohol content of its beers.
Michael H.

[ This Message was edited by: the.brewer on 2003-11-10 23:11 ]

borderline_alcoholic · Tue Nov 11, 2003 12:42 pm

On 2003-11-10 14:43, Uncle Bobby wrote:
U.S. gallons and U.S. pints have always been about 80% of Imperial measures.

Given that America was a part of that empire too, I do not see how this can entirely be the case.

Was that one of the purposes of the American revolution? "Hoorah, we'll overthrow the British, get a quick tax break and have smaller pintages forever."

Bloody puritans, eh?

[ This Message was edited by: borderline_alcoholic on 2003-11-11 14:03 ]