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We have a trivia question in order to register to prevent bots. If you have any issues with answering, contact us at cass@bartowel.com for help.
Introducing Light Mode! If you would like a Bar Towel social experience that isn't the traditional blue, you can now select Light Mode. Go to the User Control Panel and then Board Preferences, and select "Day Drinking" (Light Mode) from the My Board Style drop-down menu. You can always switch back to "Night Drinking" (Dark Mode). Enjoy!
Okay - being EMBARRASED in Toronto
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HogTownHarry
- Posts: 230
- Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2005 11:53 am
- Location: Harbourfront
Many people share your attitude, Derek, and I appreciate that, I really do. Up until maybe two years ago, I was one of them - with only 2 or 3 minor exceptions, I was not a direct witness to any of the things that people are only now beginning to be willing to post here that have been happening regularly and repeatedly for as long as I have made craft beer my number one hobby (that's about 7 years now, for those keeping track).
But the stories are MANY. I remember one of the first times I went to London (the England one) as a newly-converted beer enthusiast - on two separate occasions, people I had never met before, when hearing I was from Toronto, approached me and asked "what's the deal with that Sammy guy?" - which was pretty gobsmacking - and like you, I soft-pedalled it, tried to do the classic Canadian and when these then-strangers proceeded to tell me truly embarrassing things they had heard from reliable European and American sources, I made excuses and said, in effect, "well, that's just Sammy" - a refrain I have repeated in many bars in Toronto, Montreal and - yes - Buffalo, to wait staff, bar owners and randomly met beer enthusiasts.
Does he really reflect badly on the beer community in Toronto? I say yes, but I don't feel like I'm treated like a leper when I go to a new bar outside Toronto because of him - but like I said, for years, I have been ASKED about him by total strangers, all of whom are armed with "stories." Is this thread a poor reflection on the Toronto/Ontario beer community? I can't see how it can be --- this site is, essentially, made up OF the community, so unless we are embarrassing ourselves by finally - FINALLY - discussing the elephant that most of us have known is in the room for years, I don't see how it can. But these actions, these stories, they take place outside the narrow confines of BarTowel; if you have not, for all intents and purposes, had to defend him to a total stranger in a random craft beer bar you have only entered for the first time, then good for you. I guarantee you, my experience is more common for many of the old-timers than yours.
But, we're too Canadian - too polite - to speak up. I have been told literally DOZENS of stories by owners, servers, bartenders and other "beer geeks" over the past several years, but they are not my stories, so it is not my place to share. YES, I had finished most of a growler of Troegs Nugget Nectar when I started this thread, but I was mad as hell, and the camel's back was well and truly broken; frankly, I hope the person in question will realize that we are not attacking him randomly, this has been building for years ... hopefully he will realize that there are dozens of brewers and establishment owners who LITERALLY cringe when they see him walk in, but have no real reason to refuse him service (many would like to ban him) ... but I doubt it. In his mind, he's a, if not THE, "Toronto Beer Celebrity" and that's the end of that story.
And he IS "The Toronto Beer Celebrity" --------- just not in the way he thinks.
I do not regret starting this - I am hoping some people can offer first-hand descriptions of the many, many incidents hinted at by several responders here, but as most would be establishment owners and brewers, who rightly would not feel right about outing a customer, even one who often shows up for free samples and then bolts, I doubt we will get too many of them.
Which is a shame.
Think of me what you will, but I'm not the only one who got sick and tired of defending him. And I won't - ever again. Consider my back turned and my shoulder cold.
But the stories are MANY. I remember one of the first times I went to London (the England one) as a newly-converted beer enthusiast - on two separate occasions, people I had never met before, when hearing I was from Toronto, approached me and asked "what's the deal with that Sammy guy?" - which was pretty gobsmacking - and like you, I soft-pedalled it, tried to do the classic Canadian and when these then-strangers proceeded to tell me truly embarrassing things they had heard from reliable European and American sources, I made excuses and said, in effect, "well, that's just Sammy" - a refrain I have repeated in many bars in Toronto, Montreal and - yes - Buffalo, to wait staff, bar owners and randomly met beer enthusiasts.
Does he really reflect badly on the beer community in Toronto? I say yes, but I don't feel like I'm treated like a leper when I go to a new bar outside Toronto because of him - but like I said, for years, I have been ASKED about him by total strangers, all of whom are armed with "stories." Is this thread a poor reflection on the Toronto/Ontario beer community? I can't see how it can be --- this site is, essentially, made up OF the community, so unless we are embarrassing ourselves by finally - FINALLY - discussing the elephant that most of us have known is in the room for years, I don't see how it can. But these actions, these stories, they take place outside the narrow confines of BarTowel; if you have not, for all intents and purposes, had to defend him to a total stranger in a random craft beer bar you have only entered for the first time, then good for you. I guarantee you, my experience is more common for many of the old-timers than yours.
But, we're too Canadian - too polite - to speak up. I have been told literally DOZENS of stories by owners, servers, bartenders and other "beer geeks" over the past several years, but they are not my stories, so it is not my place to share. YES, I had finished most of a growler of Troegs Nugget Nectar when I started this thread, but I was mad as hell, and the camel's back was well and truly broken; frankly, I hope the person in question will realize that we are not attacking him randomly, this has been building for years ... hopefully he will realize that there are dozens of brewers and establishment owners who LITERALLY cringe when they see him walk in, but have no real reason to refuse him service (many would like to ban him) ... but I doubt it. In his mind, he's a, if not THE, "Toronto Beer Celebrity" and that's the end of that story.
And he IS "The Toronto Beer Celebrity" --------- just not in the way he thinks.
I do not regret starting this - I am hoping some people can offer first-hand descriptions of the many, many incidents hinted at by several responders here, but as most would be establishment owners and brewers, who rightly would not feel right about outing a customer, even one who often shows up for free samples and then bolts, I doubt we will get too many of them.
Which is a shame.
Think of me what you will, but I'm not the only one who got sick and tired of defending him. And I won't - ever again. Consider my back turned and my shoulder cold.
"Drinking removes warts and pimples. Not from me. But from those I look at." - Jackie Gleason
I've known Sammy since I entered the beer scene about 5 years ago. Throughout that time I've met many great people, and some less great people, but we all share one thing, a love for great beer! For those who I've met who have not been my cup of tea, I enjoy my sample and move onto the next connoisseur. No biggie.Derek wrote:it's really no excuse for the web bullying and grade-school slandering. Ironically, that's not a good reflection on our community either.
I've been to many of Sammy's tastings, shared beers at numerous bars, and even traveled with him. He always brings good quality and rare beers to tastings, includes me in trades acquiring stuff I wouldn't otherwise be able to get and saves others which he can't get a second bottle of for us to share and lets me know when rare beers are available at bars around Toronto so that we can sample them together (which I've numerous times).
How about we all sit down and share a pint, or don't if you'd rather sit with someone else. But to come on here and behave in this manner is quite frankly childish, hearsay and highly subjective.
And with that I click away from this thread, never to look at it again. If you wish to discuss further, let's chat over a pint at Volo. The first one's on me
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Ale's What Cures Ya
- Seasoned Drinker
- Posts: 1198
- Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 12:56 pm
- Location: The Thirsty Dog
Just jumping in to offer a quick counterpoint regarding Sammy's character: I know Sammy, have done several tastings with him, and always found him very welcoming, knowledgeable and generous when it comes to sharing the rare bottles he goes to great lengths to collect.
I'm not saying this conversation shouldn't be happening, and I must admit I was unaware of the alleged transgressions mentioned above. But just so we're not all beating up on the guy, I wanted to point out that from my experience, he's a pretty likeable dude!
Still, I'm impressed by the civility of the tone here. Perhaps now we can let the healing begin?
I'm not saying this conversation shouldn't be happening, and I must admit I was unaware of the alleged transgressions mentioned above. But just so we're not all beating up on the guy, I wanted to point out that from my experience, he's a pretty likeable dude!
Still, I'm impressed by the civility of the tone here. Perhaps now we can let the healing begin?
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Jon Walker
- Seasoned Drinker
- Posts: 1899
- Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2001 8:00 pm
- Location: Wherever you go there you are
This should all end with a good old fashioned stoning...I'll throw the first Ruination...but only after I've emptied it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MIaORknS1Dk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MIaORknS1Dk
I don't always piss in a bottle but when I do...I prefer to call it Dos Equis.
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Jon Walker
- Seasoned Drinker
- Posts: 1899
- Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2001 8:00 pm
- Location: Wherever you go there you are
So, let me summarize the original argument......Sammy’s behaviour is unacceptable and is giving beer geeks and BT’ers a bad name, so we should collectively stop associating with him. Is this correct?
Let me preface what I am going to say with the fact that I’ve only met Sammy once. He was very gracious and I came away with a good opinion of him. I haven’t seen any of this reported behaviour. It doesn’t mean it didn’t happen, just that I have never seen it in my limited experience with him.
Getting back to the original argument, by collectively shunning him, we would be improving our reputation and causing ourselves less headaches, right? Well, I’m not so sure. First of all, if Sammy is the asshole people claim, his behaviour will not change because assholes simply don’t change. Second, this thread will not improve our reputation because very few people in the beer business will read this thread. No one is going to go “oh wait, I read this thread on the Bar Towel, and well, they’ve collectively turned their back on this guy, so everything is cool now”. Plus, if any of them have any amount of deductive ability and common sense they already understand that one bad beer geek does not colour all beer geeks with the same brush.
So then, what was the purpose of this thread? I can generally think of 2 reasons. It may just simply be venting about someone some people don’t like. Alternatively, it could be something a little more troubling. If some people don’t like Sammy, they’ve already formed that opinion, so it just reinforces their pre-existing beliefs. That would then leave the purpose of the post as being a way to sway people who do like Sammy against him, leaving him totally ostracized from our community. That would be pretty mean and pre-meditated, given the lack of impact this thread likely has in terms of improving the reputation of the beer geeks in general. Why not just make a personal decision not to talk to him if you don’t like him and leave the people who do like him to continue hanging around with him? I really hope the purpose was just venting and not an attempt at widespread character assassination, as the latter is simply petty bullying. It would be considered harassment in the workplace, so why would we as a community tolerate it here?
Bottom line, I don’t know Sammy that well and I’ve never met Harry. I will gladly sit down and have a pint with either of them, either in TO or in Calgary if they ever make it my way. Same goes for any BT’er. I will form my opinion of people based on my own personal experiences, not on hearsay.
Threads like this are poisonous. I think we are better than this. I’m done with this thread.
Jay
Let me preface what I am going to say with the fact that I’ve only met Sammy once. He was very gracious and I came away with a good opinion of him. I haven’t seen any of this reported behaviour. It doesn’t mean it didn’t happen, just that I have never seen it in my limited experience with him.
Getting back to the original argument, by collectively shunning him, we would be improving our reputation and causing ourselves less headaches, right? Well, I’m not so sure. First of all, if Sammy is the asshole people claim, his behaviour will not change because assholes simply don’t change. Second, this thread will not improve our reputation because very few people in the beer business will read this thread. No one is going to go “oh wait, I read this thread on the Bar Towel, and well, they’ve collectively turned their back on this guy, so everything is cool now”. Plus, if any of them have any amount of deductive ability and common sense they already understand that one bad beer geek does not colour all beer geeks with the same brush.
So then, what was the purpose of this thread? I can generally think of 2 reasons. It may just simply be venting about someone some people don’t like. Alternatively, it could be something a little more troubling. If some people don’t like Sammy, they’ve already formed that opinion, so it just reinforces their pre-existing beliefs. That would then leave the purpose of the post as being a way to sway people who do like Sammy against him, leaving him totally ostracized from our community. That would be pretty mean and pre-meditated, given the lack of impact this thread likely has in terms of improving the reputation of the beer geeks in general. Why not just make a personal decision not to talk to him if you don’t like him and leave the people who do like him to continue hanging around with him? I really hope the purpose was just venting and not an attempt at widespread character assassination, as the latter is simply petty bullying. It would be considered harassment in the workplace, so why would we as a community tolerate it here?
Bottom line, I don’t know Sammy that well and I’ve never met Harry. I will gladly sit down and have a pint with either of them, either in TO or in Calgary if they ever make it my way. Same goes for any BT’er. I will form my opinion of people based on my own personal experiences, not on hearsay.
Threads like this are poisonous. I think we are better than this. I’m done with this thread.
Jay
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Jon Walker
- Seasoned Drinker
- Posts: 1899
- Joined: Fri Jul 27, 2001 8:00 pm
- Location: Wherever you go there you are
My last thought on the matter is this;
Individuals can form whatever opinion they want about anyone they want. It might be a shared opinion or it might not. Everyone is free to make up their own mind. I've heard stories about Sammy but I have not personally had any negative experiences with the man so I bear him no ill will.
As for the bar and restaurant owners who single out Harry in order to complain...I too feel they should be able to make a distinction between a good customer and a bad one. It's not some fraternity we belong to where the actions of one reflect the reputation of the collective...so I feel no "tarring" by anyone else's isolated behaviour. I also believe that said owners should take a harder stand against such alledged freeloading by charging people who are a problem for every sample, making them put up a credit card before ordering, declining to serve them etc...If they lose that one customers business will it affect the rest of us visiting their place? Hell no. So bar operators of Toronto ...if you have issue with Sam then perhaps deal with the issue much as you might with any other problem customer.
And Harry, should anyone attempt to complain to you about him again I'd suggest simply saying; "I have no interest in hearing about him. His actions have nothing to do with me" and leave it at that. While your intention may well have been to indirectly shame him by starting this thread and not naming him, you must've known that eventually he would be revealed and this sort of polarized character dissection would flare up. I think it's ultimately destructive and unpalatable and I would like to see this thread closed (Cass? Greg?).
Individuals can form whatever opinion they want about anyone they want. It might be a shared opinion or it might not. Everyone is free to make up their own mind. I've heard stories about Sammy but I have not personally had any negative experiences with the man so I bear him no ill will.
As for the bar and restaurant owners who single out Harry in order to complain...I too feel they should be able to make a distinction between a good customer and a bad one. It's not some fraternity we belong to where the actions of one reflect the reputation of the collective...so I feel no "tarring" by anyone else's isolated behaviour. I also believe that said owners should take a harder stand against such alledged freeloading by charging people who are a problem for every sample, making them put up a credit card before ordering, declining to serve them etc...If they lose that one customers business will it affect the rest of us visiting their place? Hell no. So bar operators of Toronto ...if you have issue with Sam then perhaps deal with the issue much as you might with any other problem customer.
And Harry, should anyone attempt to complain to you about him again I'd suggest simply saying; "I have no interest in hearing about him. His actions have nothing to do with me" and leave it at that. While your intention may well have been to indirectly shame him by starting this thread and not naming him, you must've known that eventually he would be revealed and this sort of polarized character dissection would flare up. I think it's ultimately destructive and unpalatable and I would like to see this thread closed (Cass? Greg?).
I don't always piss in a bottle but when I do...I prefer to call it Dos Equis.