The Bar Towel

Jon, face to face, I'm the politest guy you're every going to meet...get me on e-mail or in a forum and I'm a bull in a china shop...as always, although my comments may be rough around the edges, they comes from a passionate love of the subject matter...I neither take personal offence at comments in the forum nor do I intend to cause offence.

About the Alberta "wasteland" comments (coming from someone who lived in Calgary for 17 years).

Yes, the liquor stores are pretty poor out there. However, a market one-fifth the size supports the same number of brewpubs (five, two of which are in suburban locations).

Toronto may be far from perfect on its own merits, but every city has its good and bad points beer-wise.

Time for a pint.

Speaking of beer prices, for the sake of comparison ...

The Esplanade Bier Markt sells the Chimay beers, capsules bleue, blanc, et rouge, for over $9. A bottle of Niagara Falls Eisbock sells for over $19. I think Maudite goes for $4.75.

Food for thought.

Hi this is Joe, Hopdevil was always that price. Who ever commented on the price was thinking after taxes. The price of beer is always marked up between 2-3 times. Thats a general rule in the industry. Most places downtown work on a 20% cost. We have rent, staff, and utilities to pay. You must understand that doubling the price is not enough to survive. Everybody complains about the lack of beer selection in the province. myself along with a handful of other people including Peter are trying to change it. Good beer is like good wine, you pay more for it. And you definitely pay more for it at a restaurant. Its sometimes discouraging to hear comments like this because I feel my pricing is more than just fair. Take a look at our food prices. Most of my customers (many from the states) comment on how low my prices are. You want a low priced beer I sell Red Stripe for $3.99. Again a 33% cost. Try and find that beer lower in downtown. Again my price for the Robust Porter and Hop Devil has not changed. There are taxes on the net total.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Sac on 2002-04-26 15:26 ]</font>

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Sac on 2002-04-26 15:45 ]</font>

Hi Joe,

As the one who started this post I'm glad I'm the first to reply to your comments.

First let me say that I am amongst the many beer lovers in Toronto who admire you, your establishment and are thankful that it's around. I understand that you price the beers as reasonably as you feel you are able and I don't doubt that some Americans remark on the value of both the drinks and the food (however I would give some thought to the bias Americans often have toward our low Canadian prices...EVERYTHING seems cheap when it's 63 cents on the dollar). The economics of running your kind of establishment are obviously out of my grasp. After all if it were easy to run a profitable bar that had your rare and exceptional selection EVERYONE would open one. Regardless my opinions are just those of a single consumer. Whether my opinion seems misguided to you (or cheap as Peter suggested) is certainly your choice to make. Perhaps it is but it's still valid and worth considering. All I was choosing to do was make a comment about certain beers you offer and their higher prices. In my opinion I was reluctant to buy a Hopdevil at the price you listed it the first time I saw it on your chalk board. By my math, faulty though it may be, it was marked up too high FOR ME. I'm not looking for bargains, I've knocked off at least 12 each of the rare Brakspear's and Conniston's you stock at their $10+ price tag, I just noted the mark up on Hopdevil seemed excessive.

At the end of the day I'm just frustrated that there is such a poor selection of quality beer (both imported and regionally brewed) in the province. Maybe one day that'll change. I'd love for there to be Smokeless clones popping up all over the neighborhood or, PLEASE GOD, a place with 30+ taps of micro-brewed beers like the place I just visited in Syracuse. For now keep doing what you do, know that I'm thankful, and know that I personally will always feel some beers at SJ's are worth buying at higher prices and others aren't...If others are visiting your bar and buying the Hopdevil at that same price then ultimately my opinion doesn't count for much. If it's not selling well, and only you know the answer to that, then perhaps I'm not the only one who feels this way.

Anyway, thanks for taking the time to post. Keep a Conniston's at cellar temp for me would you, I'll be back in soon.

Regards,
Jon Walker

Jon, I'm not mad, just pointing out the costs involved in running the establishment. But, reality is, that Rogue retail in some states is over $5 US. With privatization also comes higher prices for specialty products. A place with over 30 beers on tap would be Utopia. But the Ontario market is not there at the moment. I wish it was, and I wish there were more places with a great selection. This scenario will benefit as all, including myself. To note, everybody should rally and get behind these unique products, such as Hopdevil. Buy more so that the LCBO will see the sales. If the demand is there, the supply will increase and hence the prices will drop as well. Don't forget the LCBO is the largest buyer in the world. So lets not study the prices we even pay at the LCBO, that is totally out of everyone's control. All I know is to get behind products like Smuttynose, Brakspeare, Ommegang and other similar products. The faster they sell, the more products like these you will see. I know for a fact the LCBO is a business, and at the end of the day, thats what dictates their purchasing trends. My customers, a small percentage of the population, always go and buy products they have at my place at the LCBO the following week. The beer scenario in Ontario will not get better, take a look at the current selection right now. So lets not quibble about price and go and support the products that you enjoy so much. Wow this sounds like a rally speech. Sorry for rambling on so long.

Just to add a note to Joe's comments, I can tell you that we're already seeing a disturbing trend at the LCBO...fewer products being purchased for each promotion and a move away from anything Belgian and towards UK because UK is more mainstream and a quicker sale. I can tell you that the only Belgians being purchased from us for this year, other than gift boxes for Xmas, are Brussels White, Mort Subite Gueuze and Mort Subite Framboise....that's a grand total of 3 Belgian beers. When we were dealing with VINTAGES we were selling somewhere in the range of 20 Belgians a year!!! The reason we're given is, very simply, Belgians don't sell very quickly so the consumer is speaking with their wallets. Any of you who are fans of Belgian products (there can't be many of you because only a couple of you ever buy any Consignment stuff from us) don't have much to look forward to.

Hey, the last thing we need here is someone complaining about an establishment that has a beer selection beyond Interbrew.

Maybe the prices are excessive, but the place is packed to door on any club night and the patio is full in the summer. If the prices were cheaper you wouldn't get a seat.

The fact is SJ's has a great beer selection, and the Hop Devil is running out fast. There's only a handful of cases left in the GTA, and I'm actually going to buy them tomorrow. Maybe you'll be lucky and Joe will have some left for you.

(BTW, BBQ at my place on the 11th -- weather permitting)

I have to side with Joe on this one. The average mark-up in restaurants and bars is triple the cost. A $10.00 bottle of wine that can be purchased at the LCBO usually costs $30.00 when brought to the table. This mark-up must cover many costs inherent to the hospitality biz, like overhead, rent, staffing, insurance and much more. The places that can get away with lower mark-ups do so with high volume. For those of us fortunate enough to have been to Joe's, we realise that the physical size of the place really impacts on his ability to do the volumes necessary to mark-up lower (even with the thirst of rabid bartowelers taken into account!) Smokeless Joe's is an oasis for those of us who are searching for the unique beers of the world. I wish there was one like it closer to me.