The Bar Towel

I don't think the question was whether or not people should look at it from a price perspective. You're right in that people who love beer have no problem plunking down for Trois-Pistoles, nor should they.

But I'll agree with Peter on this one - organic ingredients don't push the price up that much. I just conducted an extensive interview with Crannog Ales in BC and they are a tiny brewery. Their beers are all organic and sell at the same price as any other micro. And St. Peter's is not a big brewery either, just one with a mission to export. And of course, nobody forced Mill Street to locate where they did, so I'm not sure that's much of a crutch to lean on.

Fair pricing, though, is up to the market to dictate (to the extent that the free market is allowed to operate in Ontario).

Michael,

Nobody has criticised your price. It has simply been pointed out that it's very expensive and in fact it appears to be the most expensive lager or German Pils brewed and sold in Ontario. I think the small bottles are a joke but the reason that I won't be buying them is that I find the beer very ordinary. I can buy a lot of better beers in this style and yes they all do cost less and they are readily available all over the city. It should also be pointed out that for a premium product your packaging is also very ordinary. There weren't even labels on half of the bottles and the caps are standard blank home brew variety. The price is not an issue for me, but it should be for you. You're the one that has to compete in the market place and it doesn't look like your product is competitive. You think that you've found a niche in the market and you're going for it and at the end of the day that's what it's all about. I don't think that your target market buys much beer and if you plan to make beer drinkers out of non beer drinkers you've got a long road ahead.

Why you would attempt to operate a brewery in a high rent district of Toronto and then complain about the costs is beyond me.

Creemore didn't "go to a smaller bottle". They are selling their beers in two standard sizes and that's not unusual.

You seem to be asking a lot of questions but you don't have much to say about your own product.

Your major ingredient is Toronto tap water and I don't care how much you filter it, that's just not a good base for a top quality product. BTW if you want to have a frank and open debate about water filtration and organic ingredients then we can do that but there are two sides to that discussion and there are a lot of problems including major crimes and scams within both the water filtration and so called organic food and drink business. Calling something "ORGANIC" is no guarantee of anything except that it will have a high price.

Your case has a quote that says "proof that organic is better" I don't see any proof and it sure doesn't taste better.

Your case also says that the Distillery District "is now a vibrant centre for arts, culture, food and entertainment .....
This simply isn't true and the place is not supposed to open until May and it remains to be seen how many tennants will be ready to go then. If anyone reads your box and heads down there they will be very disappointed.

I would suggest that everyone go down to the brewery and try the beer and take some home and do some comparisons. If you like it and you think it's worth the trip then you'll be back. I also went to the Queens Quay LCBO and the headed up to Denisons brew pub and it was a very pleasant afternoon. The seasonal Bock at Denisons is well worth the trip.

Bailey

Now I know how HT feels! Thanks for the positive responses. As for the negative comments... these lead me to believe some have little understanding of the beer market, the history of beer and especially the science of beer. BTW Toronto water is an excellent base for making world class beers. That is a fact.
Also, someone did mention our pricing. And calling my product a 'joke' is insulting. Oh well, no man is an island.

Now who's being insulting...you don't like the comments you receive so apparently the people making them have "little understanding of the beer market"...I haven't tasted your product yet but I'm afraid your attitude is already leaving a sour taste in my mouth. Bailey did not call your product a joke, he called the bottle a joke. It's one thing to bottle a classic like Old Crustacean in a small bottle because of both price and the fact that it's one huge brew, however, bottling what I suspect will be just another decent lager in such a package is rather silly. If you can't make the product for a reasonable price, don't make it as I doubt that this product is going to become a cult classic....Also, you had better get a thicker skin if you plan to be a success in this business.

I am sorry if someone is insuted by what I wrote. But it is my opinion, and that is what this forum is all about, right? When someone writes things about my work I respond. And just calling our work 'silly' and not a 'classic' without at least seeing and trying the product is a new low. How can I defend myself against that? Thanks for your support.

I would ask that folks do not devolve this discussion into mud-slinging. The complaint was lodged over aspects of the product, the brewer replied, and that reply has been digested. As far as I'm concerned, at this point the information is out there and we can take it or we can leave it. I am certainly not going to judge Mill Street on one product, nor should they judge the Toronto beer lovers by Bartowellers alone.

The bottles are of an interesting size - it's something new on the market and though it may not appeal to the majority here -folks who routinely drink 750s of Unibroue or multiple pints in one sitting - the brewer pointed out already that the size is there to tap a market where they feel there is an opportunity. Nothing wrong with that, I don't think.

Remember these guys are doing a porter and other styles more in line with what we like to see in a brewery. We don't judge guys like Black Oak based on their lager, so why do it with Mill Street. So relax, people, and wait until the full story is out there before jumping all over people.

Sorry for reposting what Michael has said but I want to be very clear about a few things.

>> As for the negative comments... these lead me to believe some have little understanding of the beer market,<<

You were the one that asked for comments in capital letters.( in a forum like this, that is considered to be shouting) You don't like the comments so you get personal and nasty. You don't know me so let me introduce myself. I am what they call a customer. I am a very vital part of the beer market and I have have an excellent understanding of it and of my role in it. In the distant past I also worked for an agent. I usually have between twenty and thirty different beers in my home and I have tried and continue to try every single beer that the LCBO has. I also buy a lot of the products at the Beer Store. I made a point of coming to your brewery as soon as I heard that you were open. I tramped through the unplowed streets and eventually found you among all of the vacant buildings. You didn't even have the sense to put up a sign on the main road. I put down my twenty dollars and took home two cases. I won't make that mistake again.

>>the history of beer<<

I have a large library of beer books however I fail to see what that has to do with anything.

>> and especially the science of beer.<<

Making beer is not that complicated and I can assure you that I have a good understanding. I also have a a good understanding of how to market a product and how to treat a customer. You are clearly lacking in both of these areas.

>> BTW Toronto water is an excellent base for making world class beers. That is a fact. <<

Toronto tap water is an excellent base for flushing a toilet. Your beer will never be confused with a world class product. You really should do your homework. Talk to Pollution Probe and read some of the many reports issued by a variety of sources on the quality of the water in Lake Ontario. It's bad and it's getting worse and that is a fact.

>>Also, someone did mention our pricing.<<

Yes, it the most expensive beer of it's kind and it's not worth what you're asking for it. You are tring to hide that fact with the size of your bottles and it's not going to work.

>>And calling my product a 'joke' is insulting.<<

I said that your bottles were a joke and they are. The way that you conduct yorself when speaking with a customer in a public forum in front of several hundred other potential custmers is also a joke. I urged everyone to go to your brewery and buy some beer and make up their own minds. I will now take that back and urge everyone not to waste their time because neither you nor your overpriced product are worth the trip.
There seems to be some confusion about this place being a brewpub - it is not and there is nowhere to sit down and have a pint. It's a small low budget brewery in an old building.

Bailey

I second Josh's note - let's not let this degrade into insults going back and forth.

Mill St. is operated by some dedicated indivuals that are passionate about their beer. Similarly, beer connoisseurs in Ontario are equally passionate, and want to see new and innovative products in the marketplace. However, let's not make them feel unwelcome here as they start out of the gate - I think everyone can agree that running a brewery in this province is challenging as it is.

I look forward to visiting Mill St. and trying some of their new lager.

Cass

How about those Leafs!

Esprit nice call! I joined this web page on learning from everyone here onsite and sharing information about beer. Please lets leave the soap operas for daytime television or men who drink bad beer and watch RAW!

I'm going to agree in spirit with Oakes and Cass here. We now have, on this forum, the enviable position of having the ear of quite a few brewers. I'm all for constructive criticism, but let's not alienate people right off the bat. If we are seen as helpful and positive in our advice/criticism, then it's much more likely that they'll stay, they'll listen and everyone will get a better product.

I too agree about the fruitless nature of mud slinging. It's like any discussion that turns into an arguement, the original point gets lost.

I'm very happy to have another brewer posting here so for my part, welcome. I think you'll find a great deal of strong opinions here, as you've no doubt experienced. I'd also suggest to you that those passionate enough to frequent these Bartowel forums generally know a great deal more about beer and the business of making it than your average person. They can be a great source of feedback, good and bad, and if we can all play nice it can be beneficial to all parties.

I too would suggest to Mill Street that the size and cost of their first beer is prohibitive. I hope that you sell enough at that price point to enable your business to grow and prosper. I fear however that the novelty aspect of your product will not capture the hearts and minds of the beer buying public in the long term. If perhaps you were brewing a Barley Wine or a high % IPA in such small bottles then that might fit well with the price point and size you're hoping to move in volume (check out Rogue's mini beer offerings). Organic Pilsner just doesn't excite us beer snobs (unless it's exceptionally good) and mainstream beer swillers aren't likely to buy small pricey bottles. I guess we'll all wait and see. If you move the stuff in volume then us nay-sayers will eat some crow. I just hope you don't dismiss our comments because they don't suit your business and marketing plan. In the end good beer, at any price, finds a market albeit sometimes small. Focus on that and hopefully the rest will follow.

Regardless, best of luck with this venture. It's hard for anyone to make a go of brewing in this market place. I have infinite respect for any individual or group that tries it at all. Hats off to you, I look forward to the darker beer offerings you have scheduled for later this year.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Jon Walker on 2003-01-15 00:43 ]</font>

I'd like to add my voice to the chorus of folks who are calling for cooler heads to prevail here. We've got a good community going here, and it's getting better as more and more brewers and other industry folks join. Let's hope it continues.

And there's one point from Bailey's last post that I want to comment on:

<i>There seems to be some confusion about this place being a brewpub - it is not and there is nowhere to sit down and have a pint. It's a small low budget brewery in an old building.</i>

When I visited the Distillery complex back in the summer and spoke to someone in the brewery area (which was in the process of being constructed), I was told that there are plans for a large restaurant/pub to be put in adjacent to the brewery. I would assume that these plans will probably go ahead in the spring/summer when the other businesses start opening.


Greg

...never mind cooler heads...I say we meet somewhere and settle this like true beer-swilling men...with our fists...or better, yet, armed with beer bottles...Mill St. can use their lager bottle, I'll bring along my Chimay Grande Reserve Magnum...

Sorry to the guys at Mill St. for the baptism of fire! Beer is a beverage (the finest, of course!) but it is also a consumer commodity. The marketplace will decide whether their price point is too high.
Toronto does have a reputation however. In the domestic wine world, the unofficial motto is "charge twice as much for it and it will sell out in Toronto". This indicates a perception that in the "snob" community, be it wine,beer,or automobiles that a $50.00 item is 5 times better than a $10.00 one. Usually this is not the case. This attitude is not restricted to Toronto either.
I wish the crew at Mill St. the very best of luck and success. Lets just let the market decide the viability of the price.