The Bar Towel

I still find it comical that dhurtubise has encouraged us to give the Grand Cru a third or even fourth try in the hopes that, like him, we might get past the vomit characteristics he noted in his first immersion in the style. Hmmmm...well the only vomit I've ever sampled has been my own and generally only on its way out, not in. Personally that's the way I'd like to keep it. But wait a second...perhaps this comparison can be taken to it's logical end. Perhaps I should keep some of my vomit next time I throw up in order to give IT a second chance. If I can only get past the harsher stomach acid and bile notes up front my apparently unsophisticated palate might be able to detect the more subtle blend of midday's chicken penne, mixed with the cheeky, residual notes of my breakfast burrito and Starbucks latte lingering at the finish...God the world of flavours I've been missing out on...all because I dismissed vomit as...VOMIT!



HOWEVER...I remember a time in my naive youth when I also hated single malt scotch so...maybe I'll learn to like these sour Belgian beers in time...or maybe not.

P.S. Anyone know if www.ratevomit.com has been registered?

Jon Walker wrote: But wait a second...perhaps this comparison can be taken to it's logical end. Perhaps I should keep some of my vomit next time I throw up in order to give IT a second chance.

Might I suggest barrel aging it for two years on casks that have previously held Screech. Then you may have something.

They beat you to it... http://ratemyvomit.com/

Jon Walker wrote:I still find it comical that dhurtubise has encouraged us to give the Grand Cru a third or even fourth try in the hopes that, like him, we might get past the vomit characteristics he noted in his first immersion in the style.

I have to clarify that those characteristics were noted in lambics which have three bacteria as the major contributors in producing the sourness experienced in the beer.

Brettanomyces bruxelensis and brettanomyces lambicus are the bacteria that asside from contributing the sourness, produce the flavours often described as old cheese, horse blanket (carboxylic acids) and woody: that is what I described as resinous and reminiscent of V. This last one no longer comes through in the lambics for me: i think the palate ajusts and can break down the overal impression into the sum of the parts which is more manageable and more enjoyable.

The other bacterium in play is lactobacilus delbrucki which provides a very clean sourness without the periferal flavours described above. It contributes quite a bit of sourness in the lambics along with the two others. In the Oud Bruin, the red ales and the berliner weiss, this bacterium sours the beer exclusively in most examples. These beers will tend to have a clean lactic sourness (lacic acid = carboxilic acid but a clean one). In homebrewing circles, lactic acid is sometimes added to approximate the effect though much of the complexity is lost since the bacteria also achieves a lightening of the body while pure additions will not. A beer, like the grand cru, which is pretty much exclusively soured with this strain should not taste like horseblacket, resins or like vomit.

The fact that it is a clean sourness that is instilled in the beer might expain why tulapev described the his experience with the Grand Cru as overwhelming sourness with very little complexity as compared with the Cantillon's who's sourness is derived from a team of three major contributing bacteria (and a host of 300, more or less insignificant, organisms).

For whichever one of the sour beers, the trick to enjoying them is always the same: get over the initial sour punch and explore the underlayers which are almost always complex and wonderful. The sourness is what you have to acquire a taste for and it usually comes quite quickly, especially on hot summer days.

I dont find this beer that sour, although I will admit the batch we picked up in Manitoba early this year must have been from an older recipe - it was almost sweet like a kriek lambic, which only a bit of tartness, and very mellow. Of course, it could have been sitting on those shelves for a loooong time before we got there

I cant stomach Cantillon, but this beer I find has the right amount of sour.

A wrote:I dont find this beer that sour, although I will admit the batch we picked up in Manitoba early this year must have been from an older recipe - it was almost sweet like a kriek lambic, which only a bit of tartness, and very mellow. Of course, it could have been sitting on those shelves for a loooong time before we got there

I cant stomach Cantillon, but this beer I find has the right amount of sour.

I had a bottle from Manitoba that I found to be absolutely excellent. I rated it 4.9/5 on RateBeer. I found it a little mellower and smoother and perhaps sweeter than the batch that's currently at the LCBO. That could just be that it had aged a little longer. And, that's not to say I am not thoroughly enjoying the stuff currently available in Ontario., which I would rate about a 4.7/5.

Joe

I agree with your assessment, although there was a slight hint of a funky aftertaste in the bottles from the 'peg that I cant really explain. Its not in this new batch.

Overall I like both batches roughly the same, but for different reasons.

Does anyone know how well this beer should age?

A wrote:I agree with your assessment, although there was a slight hint of a funky aftertaste in the bottles from the 'peg that I cant really explain. Its not in this new batch.

Overall I like both batches roughly the same, but for different reasons.

Does anyone know how well this beer should age?

There are few beers crafted in the world that age better. This particular beer is already aged up to 2 years in oaken barrels before it is bottled. The batch that we have has an expiry of 2008, so the brewery probably states 5 years. I believe that the grand cru, along with the traditional lambics can age for up to 20 years. One particular lambic brewery - Hansen's or Oud Beersel - had a best before date on their bottles of 20 years. It is common in Belgium to find cellared examples in cafés up to 10 years old.

As far as the aging process goes, the sourness will intensify and the sweetness diminish as a result of unfermentable complex sugars that aren't consumed by the regular ale yeast being consumed by the bacteria. This relieves the beer of some sweetness and by adding lactic acid among the byproducts, the beer sours. Since sweetness and sourness counterbalance one another, the consumption of the sugar by the bacteria hits twice as hard as far as rendering the beer sour goes.

It may just be that you enjoy this beer while it is younger and as well aged. There are also some variances in the beer from year to year, although it is highly doubtful that the recipe changes.

One thing though is that one of the bigger belgian breweries, Palm, bought the small Rodenbach brewery about five years ago and there were huge variances at the beginning as they tried to produce the beer at their more modern brewery (less work intensive). However, they found that they could not duplicate the intense sourness that is characteristic of the grand cru and the alexander. Last I heard, the grand cru is brewed at the Palm brewery and trucked to Rodenbach for fermentation and then aging in the oaken barrels of the original brewery. The oaken barrels contain the bacteria that sours the beer.

Good thing I bought a case of it then Although, I'm not sure if i'd want it to get too much more sour....

The best-before date on my bottles is 30/06/06 (ie. 30 June 2006). That should be the same for the entire batch that the LCBO received, no? Are there bottles that give a 2008 date? Just curious...

The question of whether or not Rodenbach ages well is open to some debate, I think. It's true that it's already an "old" beer when it gets bottled, having spent the preceding two years in oak tuns. However, the maturing beer is still very much alive, whereas the bottled beer isn't, since it is both filtered and pasteurized. The potential, therefore, for Rodenbach Grand Cru to "develop" isn't that great. As Michael Jackson has written, "It is not intended for laying down." (Traditional lambic, such as oude gueuze, is not, and should not, be either filtered or pasteurized, so it doesn't make the best comparison.)

However, Rodenbach Grand Cru seems to be one of those beers that has a certain amount of built-in immortality. By most accounts, pre-Palm bottles are still in fine shape, so current bottles should do just as well over the coming years.

So I don't doubt that it has a long shelf-life, but I'm curious about whether it will actually age or develop with time.

The question of whether or not Rodenbach ages well is open to some debate

The bottle best before date gives you 2 years from bottling I believe.

For those who have on hand a quantity of Rodenbach they feel they can't use I advise to use the beer for blending. In the old days, ales were often confected and considered most palatable when a proportion of acidic aged beer was blended with younger sweeter beer. (Indeed Rodenbach/Palm does this itself via its "Alexander" which is not however the happiest of blends, by my lights). So for example, add 10% Rodenbach to Fuller 1845, or Sleeman's Porter, the effect is considerable additional complexity. Studies of lactic acid levels in 1800's ales show much higher percentages than would be considered normal today. Thus, by adding some Rodenbach to a tasty ale or porter one can approximate the top-fermented beers our forefathers drank. Maybe, but it is fun trying.

Gary

I had my first today and I have to say it wasn't bad. I could distinguish the oak under the thick layer of sourness (AKA tartness). I don't think it's easy to match it to food either. I'm going to buy some more but I definitely won't stock up.

Vis-a-vis cellaring Rodenbach, Wheatsheaf is right in that while it holds up well over a few years, it is not a beer specifically designed to improve over time.

As for food and beer pairings, I would humbly suggest cooking a carbonade Flamande with the Rodenbach, or equal parts Rodenbach and a sweeter, maltier beer, and enjoying it with same. Delicious!

Steve Beaumont wrote:Vis-a-vis cellaring Rodenbach, Wheatsheaf is right in that while it holds up well over a few years, it is not a beer specifically designed to improve over time.

This is right. I was very surprised to find out that the rodenbach is filtered. As such, not containing any live organisms, it cannot improve over time. It is interesting to note the variance in flavours that can be found in this product despite the fact that it is dead on the day it is bottled.